[Audacity-devel] audacity-devel Digest, Vol 132, Issue 11

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2017-04-02 19:32:53 UTC

How can the development of audacity be downloaded?
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Subject:audacity-devel Digest, Vol 132, Issue 11

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering?
Thanks to FFmpeg? (Gale Andrews)
2. Re: Cut and paste implemented for time track (Richard Ash)
3. Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering?
Thanks to FFmpeg? (Steve the Fiddle)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 19:28:30 +0100
From: Gale Andrews <***@audacityteam.org>
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] We already had bad quality drag-and-drop
MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?
To: Audacity Developers List <audacity-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Message-ID:
<CANSFOvBX7qnCqh0PqKsMDq83nMuWuAJ+***@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they are
sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.

I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
own.

Gale

I know nothing about .mod files. No relation to .mid files? Or is it a
similar enough format?
What do we think is happening? Does ffmpeg misinterpret .mid files as if
some other format?
Somehow the bad renderings I hear get the melody somewhat right, but the
timbres wrong, and there are loud clicks in the result. It's weird.
PRL

And the prize goes to Robert :-)
Yes it's a mod file.
I think the reason that FFmpeg gives some sound from MIDI files is an
accident. My guess is that libmodplug is trying to read them and is
using a generic "beep" tone in the absence of any audio data in the
file.
I've not found anything about MIDI support in FFmpeg, other than
everyone saying "FFmpeg does not support MIDI", but FFmpeg DOES
support MOD files via libmodplug.
So in response to Paul's question, I don't think we should drop mod
file support. I think we should make it work on all platforms and
document it.
Steve

Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0

Sounds pretty good.
Is it some kind of mod file?
Robert

Steve

Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none? As
now,
neither is the case.
As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
other
reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
PRL
On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle

That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
Steve

2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli

t
The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
Windows as
on
Mac. Did you try it? Awful.

Someone on the Audacity4blind mailing list mentioned it some weeks
ago.
I did the same investigation as you with the same result.
It's really not worth keeping it until it is an official feature of
FFMpeg.
To me, it sounds like some sort of "audio thumbnail".
Robert

On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22

Huh, that's really odd.
I don't know why ffmpeg supports midi suddenly. Their site makes
no
claims about midi support, and I can't find anything in the
source
that implies it should...
(https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFmpeg/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=midi&type=
shows support for midi sample dumps (no clue what those are, but
the
extension is sds), but not midi itself). Yet it works (both in
audacity, and with the standalone ffmpeg).
It also works via Import->Audio with "all files" selected, but
not
when "all supported files" or "ffmpeg-compatible files" is
selected.
I have no clue how... interesting find.
--Poke
On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Paul Licameli

I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
MIDI
file

and

basic playback worked.
But I also made a discovery. I can drag and drop a .MID file
onto
the
Audacity window and it renders (but badly, with wrong timbres!)
as
a
waveform. This happens even in master. Debugging showed me
the
FFmpeg
import plugin was doing it.
Did we know we had this feature? I didn't!
The same does not happen on macOS. Instead I get an error
dialog

telling me

to use Import MIDI... in the menus. The reason for the
difference
may
relate to the conditional compilation in class DropTarget in
Project.cpp.
PRL
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 19:36:59 +0100
From: Richard Ash <***@audacityteam.org>
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Cut and paste implemented for time track
To: Paul Licameli <***@gmail.com>
Cc: Audacity-Devel list <audacity-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Message-ID: <***@audacityteam.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 11:06:57 -0400

I am aware of one defect. If you cut points, then the time envelope
before and after the cut is not left unchanged. And the same is true
of envelopes of wave clips. Not coincidentally, because the code is
common.
I have a branch envelope-fixes meant to address that and other
problems. In fact it is some rather old work of mine that got
repeatedly delayed from merging. I expect I will review and merge it
this release.

I'd be really pleased to have that for volume envelopes!

Richard

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 20:22:40 +0100
From: Steve the Fiddle <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] We already had bad quality drag-and-drop
MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?
To: Audacity-Devel list <audacity-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Message-ID:
<CABp83eAbAfMyf_aVBy6Ufxt4i_SXvqS9rrdcen7Di=e-***@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.

From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to

play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
"sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
"automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.

Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
"trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
"Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
support all of the variants.

As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
(hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
tracker that I used 20 years ago:
https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/

(I feel all nostalgic now ;-)

Steve

As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they are
sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
own.
Gale

Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0

Sounds pretty good.
Is it some kind of mod file?
Robert

Steve

That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
Steve

2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli

t
The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
Windows as
on
Mac. Did you try it? Awful.

On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22

I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
MIDI
file

and

telling me

------------------

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Gale Andrews

2017-04-03 00:25:32 UTC

Permalink

Please could you give your message a descriptive and unique title,
even if you reply to a digest.

Post by æç©º
How can the development of audacity be downloaded?

http://www.audacityteam.org/download/source/.

Gale

Post by æç©º
---原始邮件---
Date:2017年4月3日(星期一) 凌晨3:22
Subject:audacity-devel Digest, Vol 132, Issue 11
Send audacity-devel mailing list submissions to
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
You can reach the person managing the list at
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of audacity-devel digest..."
1. Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering?
Thanks to FFmpeg? (Gale Andrews)
2. Re: Cut and paste implemented for time track (Richard Ash)
3. Re: We already had bad quality drag-and-drop MIDI rendering?
Thanks to FFmpeg? (Steve the Fiddle)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 19:28:30 +0100
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] We already had bad quality drag-and-drop
MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
As I understand it, the point about MOD files (or tracker files as they are
sometimes called) is that they actually have PCM samples in them.
The file describes how to repeat/rearrange the samples.
I guess FFmpeg is figuring out the arranging without having the audio
data to do it with, so is trying to do so with the MIDI information on its
own.
Gale

2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle

Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0

Sounds pretty good.
Is it some kind of mod file?
Robert

Steve

That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
Steve

2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli

t
The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
Windows as
on
Mac. Did you try it? Awful.

On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22

I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
MIDI
file

and

telling me

------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 19:36:59 +0100
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] Cut and paste implemented for time track
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 11:06:57 -0400

I'd be really pleased to have that for volume envelopes!
Richard
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 20:22:40 +0100
Subject: Re: [Audacity-devel] We already had bad quality drag-and-drop
MIDI rendering? Thanks to FFmpeg?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
MIDI and MOD (modules) are very closely related.

From very early days of computer music, computers have been used to

play sequences of audio events - the fundamental concept of a
"sequencer". The first "music computer" I recall seeing was a
Fairlight CMI in a small London studio in the early '80s. I remember
being utterly astonished by this machine, with its ability to perform
"automatic double tracking", digital delay, and a "huge" library of
hundreds of sounds. This was before the arrival of MIDI, but a
continuation of the development from step sequencers and early drum
machines. Later versions of the Fairlight CMI supported MIDI.
Roll on a few years to the (much more affordable) Atari ST and
"trackers" were all the rage and remained popular into the '90s (I was
using ModPlug Tracker in the late '90s on Windows 3.11). Standards for
MOD files were "flexible" in the sense that there were many
variations. "Impulse Tracker" (running under MS-DOS) had its own .IT
file extension. "Fast Tracker" introduced the XM and XI formats and
"Scream Tracker" brought the S3M format. The formats were similar
enough that more "modern" (late '90s) trackers like ModPlug could
support all of the variants.
As MIDI became more widespread there was less need for sequencers to
handle sampling / synthesis, and MIDI sequencers controlling separate
(hardware or software) sound modules, gradually replaced trackers.
Trackers still remain as a niche interest, with at least one tracker
still under development - OpenMPT, the direct descendant of ModPlug
https://source.openmpt.org/browse/openmpt/
(I feel all nostalgic now ;-)
Steve

2017-04-01 17:36 GMT+02:00, Steve the Fiddle

Try dragging this file into Audacity on Windows with FFmpeg.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1d0ahqtt0qvg6n/GSLINGER.mid?dl=0

Sounds pretty good.
Is it some kind of mod file?
Robert

Steve

Should this awful thing be available on all platforms or on none?
As
now,
neither is the case.
As I said, there is some code specific to Mac, probably put there for
other
reasons, but incidentally blocking import of MIDI by FFmpeg.
PRL
On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Steve the Fiddle

That's amazing, I never knew FFmpeg could do that.
OK, so it's awful, truly awful, but could be of interest for people
wanting an easy way to make "chiptunes".
Steve

2017-04-01 13:01 GMT+02:00, Paul Licameli

t
The rendering is so poor, perhaps we should disable this on
Windows as
on
Mac. Did you try it? Awful.

On Friday, March 31, 2017, Pokechu22

I just compiled Pokechu22's branch on Windows and imported a
MIDI
file

and

telling me

------------------

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