[Audacity-devel] Additional selection option--would it be useful?

[Robert Hänggi]

Hi all

In the selection toolbar, we have currently the radio buttons "Length"
and "End".

I wonder if it would be useful to have an additional option "Width".

What it would do:
- "Selection Start" becomes "Selection Center"
- "Selection Length" becomes "Selection Width"

Possible applications
-Repair: put the cursor in the center of a destroyed passage, choose
width and extend it to max 128 samples.
- Crossfade Clips
Navigate to a clip boundary, choose width and extend the selection to
e.g. 4 seconds (2 seconds on both sides).

Regards
Robert

[Steve the Fiddle]

Post by Robert Hänggi
Hi all
In the selection toolbar, we have currently the radio buttons "Length"
and "End".
I wonder if it would be useful to have an additional option "Width".

On reading down your post this far, I have no idea what "width" might
do. That's a huge "minus" from a usability point of view.
Also, doesn't this belong on the QA list rather than devel ?

Steve

Post by Robert Hänggi
- "Selection Start" becomes "Selection Center"
- "Selection Length" becomes "Selection Width"
Possible applications
-Repair: put the cursor in the center of a destroyed passage, choose
width and extend it to max 128 samples.
- Crossfade Clips
Navigate to a clip boundary, choose width and extend the selection to
e.g. 4 seconds (2 seconds on both sides).
Regards
Robert

[Gale Andrews]

Post by Robert Hänggi
Hi all
In the selection toolbar, we have currently the radio buttons "Length"
and "End".
I wonder if it would be useful to have an additional option "Width".
- "Selection Start" becomes "Selection Center"
- "Selection Length" becomes "Selection Width"

Do I understand, Robert, that selecting the extra button "Width"
would rename/repurpose the first two spinboxes as you describe,
but that with "End" or "Length" selected, Selection Toolbar behaves
as now?

I am not sure about the difference between "Width" and "Length"
as we have now. Do you mean that "Width" is half the length?

Post by Robert Hänggi
Doesn't this belong on the QA list rather than devel ?

I thought new features were on -devel as a general rule, unless
it's felt this is too speculative and lacking description of code
changes needed.


Gale

Post by Robert Hänggi
Possible applications
-Repair: put the cursor in the center of a destroyed passage, choose
width and extend it to max 128 samples.
- Crossfade Clips
Navigate to a clip boundary, choose width and extend the selection to
e.g. 4 seconds (2 seconds on both sides).
Regards
Robert

[Robert Hänggi]

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi
Hi all
In the selection toolbar, we have currently the radio buttons "Length"
and "End".
I wonder if it would be useful to have an additional option "Width".
- "Selection Start" becomes "Selection Center"
- "Selection Length" becomes "Selection Width"

Do I understand, Robert, that selecting the extra button "Width"
would rename/repurpose the first two spinboxes as you describe,
but that with "End" or "Length" selected, Selection Toolbar behaves
as now?
I am not sure about the difference between "Width" and "Length"
as we have now. Do you mean that "Width" is half the length?

It is actually the same length as Lengtht.
However, increasing and decreasing the width changes the value at both
ends simultaneously.
So, if you add 1 second, it will start half a second earlier and end
half a second later while the center value would not change.

It is similar to the option for Spectral Selection except that all is
linear (the center is really the middle point, no logarithms)

As I said, the Crossfading of clips is the ideal example. You could
navigate to a clip boundary, adjust the width, apply the effect and
undo and try again with another width.
Thus, you can stay in one control the whole time.

I don't say that it is a 20 times a day feature but a possible
enhancement nonetheless.

Robert

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi
Doesn't this belong on the QA list rather than devel ?

I thought new features were on -devel as a general rule, unless
it's felt this is too speculative and lacking description of code
changes needed.
Gale

Post by Robert Hänggi
Possible applications
-Repair: put the cursor in the center of a destroyed passage, choose
width and extend it to max 128 samples.
- Crossfade Clips
Navigate to a clip boundary, choose width and extend the selection to
e.g. 4 seconds (2 seconds on both sides).
Regards
Robert

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[Martyn Shaw]

Hi Robert

I think this is quite a good idea, but I would re-frame it a little. In
the Selection Toolbar instead of:

"Selection Start: (.) End ()Length"

we could have

"Selection: (.) Start () Middle (.) End ()Length"

which is a minimal change to the interface, does not introduce a new word
and all 4 combinations of the buttons have pretty obvious functionality.

Coding for this would be quite easy to do and restricted to one or two
files, so pretty safe and easy to test. Why not write it under
EXPERIMENTAL so it can be tried out?

HTH
Martyn

Post by Robert Hänggi
Hi all
In the selection toolbar, we have currently the radio buttons "Length"
and "End".
I wonder if it would be useful to have an additional option "Width".
- "Selection Start" becomes "Selection Center"
- "Selection Length" becomes "Selection Width"
Possible applications
-Repair: put the cursor in the center of a destroyed passage, choose
width and extend it to max 128 samples.
- Crossfade Clips
Navigate to a clip boundary, choose width and extend the selection to
e.g. 4 seconds (2 seconds on both sides).
Regards
Robert
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
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[Peter Sampson]

I have a personal use case for this.

Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.

The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of the key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station) which are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.

So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.

Robert's suggestion would aid that.

Peter

[Robert Hänggi]

Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.

I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected, namely nicely.

However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the change... ;)

1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.

Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities such as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.

2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".

Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of the key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station) which are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

[James Crook]

Hmm.

The tab order problem can be fixed by code to set the tab order.

Let me check I have understood your proposal about point 1.

-------------------------------------

Robert's proposal (adapted very slightly):

The second numeric control of the pair has a radio button group above it
with options:

end
length
span

The first numeric control of the pair has no radio button. It has a
title that changes to 'Selection center:' if using span, 'Selection
start:' otherwise.

-------------------------------------

That seems very doable, and if that would work a lot better, let's move
on from the current design in HEAD.

There is a small detail, that if we want a span from sample 101 to 104
(inclusive) the center needs to be at 102.5. and the span length must
be odd. If we want a span from sample 101 to 105, the center needs to
be at 103, and the span length must be even. I 'fudged' that for now,
and e.g if you are working in NTSC frames, center is at whole frames,
not half frames, so there is a loss of precision if using center.

I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.

Translating that point back to the Selection Toolbar, we'd want options:

Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span

I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them. Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.

I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.

For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.

--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected, namely nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities such as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of the key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station) which are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

[Gale Andrews]

If I'm correct in thinking that "Span" changed to "Length" shows
the same value, then I don't think calling it "Span" is sufficient.
I am not sure what to call it.

In the current implementation, the values of both sets of TimeText
controls usually change when the radio button is changed, which
is clear. Robert's proposal seems less clear to me for sighted users
than what we have now.

If we had Right/Center (or something) and End/Length pairs that
is clear, but to address the issue of VI users forgetting which
direction mode they have set, wouldn't those two pairs both have
to be over the second TimeText control? That would look bad.

Can we address this better by keeping the current implementation
and have Ctrl + F6 and its Shift variant go back to the Start/Center
pair even if focus was in the End/Length pair?

If that is too confusing, can VI users live with it until we have these
pair of buttons as a single "option combination" control?



Gale

Post by James Crook
Hmm.
The tab order problem can be fixed by code to set the tab order.
Let me check I have understood your proposal about point 1.
-------------------------------------
The second numeric control of the pair has a radio button group above it
end
length
span
The first numeric control of the pair has no radio button. It has a
title that changes to 'Selection center:' if using span, 'Selection
start:' otherwise.
-------------------------------------
That seems very doable, and if that would work a lot better, let's move
on from the current design in HEAD.
There is a small detail, that if we want a span from sample 101 to 104
(inclusive) the center needs to be at 102.5. and the span length must
be odd. If we want a span from sample 101 to 105, the center needs to
be at 103, and the span length must be even. I 'fudged' that for now,
and e.g if you are working in NTSC frames, center is at whole frames,
not half frames, so there is a loss of precision if using center.
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them. Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected, namely nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities such as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of the key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station) which are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
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[Robert Hänggi]

Post by James Crook
Hmm.
The tab order problem can be fixed by code to set the tab order.
Let me check I have understood your proposal about point 1.
-------------------------------------
The second numeric control of the pair has a radio button group above it
end
length
span
The first numeric control of the pair has no radio button. It has a
title that changes to 'Selection center:' if using span, 'Selection
start:' otherwise.
-------------------------------------
That seems very doable, and if that would work a lot better, let's move
on from the current design in HEAD.

0> There is a small detail, that if we want a span from sample 101 to 104

Post by James Crook
(inclusive) the center needs to be at 102.5. and the span length must
be odd. If we want a span from sample 101 to 105, the center needs to
be at 103, and the span length must be even. I 'fudged' that for now,
and e.g if you are working in NTSC frames, center is at whole frames,
not half frames, so there is a loss of precision if using center.

I was about to ask you how you solved this implementation detail.
I would have expected that the "Span" could only be increased by
twos--manually adjusting start and end would give the same.

Of course, there remains the problem with the center value not
displaying correctly if the length is odd.
There's no place for a ".5" or a ½.
Another possibility is to put ≈ (almost equal to) in front of the value.
And the simplest one (apart from leaving all how it is): Forget
"Center" altogether.
We could still nudge the selection by adjusting "Start".
The only important behaviour is that of "Span" which shrinks/grows the
selection of both sides.
In other words, you could still set the edit cursor to a specific
position and expand the selection afterwards to do for example Peter's
+/-15 minutes deletion.
It might even be better since it shows when we are at time zero with the start.

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.

I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).

Imagine the following situation:
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.

There's one disadvantage to the "Show all controls approach":
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.

------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected, namely nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities such as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of the key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station) which are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[James Crook]

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
Hmm.
The tab order problem can be fixed by code to set the tab order.
Let me check I have understood your proposal about point 1.
-------------------------------------
The second numeric control of the pair has a radio button group above it
end
length
span
The first numeric control of the pair has no radio button. It has a
title that changes to 'Selection center:' if using span, 'Selection
start:' otherwise.
-------------------------------------
That seems very doable, and if that would work a lot better, let's move
on from the current design in HEAD.

0> There is a small detail, that if we want a span from sample 101 to 104

Post by James Crook
(inclusive) the center needs to be at 102.5. and the span length must
be odd. If we want a span from sample 101 to 105, the center needs to
be at 103, and the span length must be even. I 'fudged' that for now,
and e.g if you are working in NTSC frames, center is at whole frames,
not half frames, so there is a loss of precision if using center.

I was about to ask you how you solved this implementation detail.
I would have expected that the "Span" could only be increased by
twos--manually adjusting start and end would give the same.
Of course, there remains the problem with the center value not
displaying correctly if the length is odd.
There's no place for a ".5" or a ½.
Another possibility is to put ≈ (almost equal to) in front of the value.
And the simplest one (apart from leaving all how it is): Forget
"Center" altogether.
We could still nudge the selection by adjusting "Start".
The only important behaviour is that of "Span" which shrinks/grows the
selection of both sides.
In other words, you could still set the edit cursor to a specific
position and expand the selection afterwards to do for example Peter's
+/-15 minutes deletion.
It might even be better since it shows when we are at time zero with the start.

Hmm. A further detail of that is that "Span" could be allowed to
increment/decrement in units steps. When span is an odd number of
units, incrementing/decrementing moves end but not start. When it is an
even number, incrementing/decrementing moves start but not end.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.

I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.

Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.

and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.

We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck. If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.

In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.

Does that sound a good plan?

For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected, namely nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities such as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of the key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station) which are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[Robert Hänggi]

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
Hmm.
The tab order problem can be fixed by code to set the tab order.
Let me check I have understood your proposal about point 1.
-------------------------------------
The second numeric control of the pair has a radio button group above it
end
length
span
The first numeric control of the pair has no radio button. It has a
title that changes to 'Selection center:' if using span, 'Selection
start:' otherwise.
-------------------------------------
That seems very doable, and if that would work a lot better, let's move
on from the current design in HEAD.

0> There is a small detail, that if we want a span from sample 101 to 104

Post by James Crook
(inclusive) the center needs to be at 102.5. and the span length must
be odd. If we want a span from sample 101 to 105, the center needs to
be at 103, and the span length must be even. I 'fudged' that for now,
and e.g if you are working in NTSC frames, center is at whole frames,
not half frames, so there is a loss of precision if using center.

I was about to ask you how you solved this implementation detail.
I would have expected that the "Span" could only be increased by
twos--manually adjusting start and end would give the same.
Of course, there remains the problem with the center value not
displaying correctly if the length is odd.
There's no place for a ".5" or a ½.
Another possibility is to put ≈ (almost equal to) in front of the value.
And the simplest one (apart from leaving all how it is): Forget
"Center" altogether.
We could still nudge the selection by adjusting "Start".
The only important behaviour is that of "Span" which shrinks/grows the
selection of both sides.
In other words, you could still set the edit cursor to a specific
position and expand the selection afterwards to do for example Peter's
+/-15 minutes deletion.
It might even be better since it shows when we are at time zero with the start.

Hmm. A further detail of that is that "Span" could be allowed to
increment/decrement in units steps. When span is an odd number of
units, incrementing/decrementing moves end but not start. When it is an
even number, incrementing/decrementing moves start but not end.

What's the current behaviour if "Snap-to" is off?
As I understand it, the project rate is basis for the division.
The controls show a rounded value according to the format. Changing
values there will "snap to" whole numbers whereas expanding by
keyboard can still "destroy" integer values (silently rounded behind
the scenes).


Let's suppose the format is HH:MM:SS
and the selection is seconds 1-2-3
If we engage Center/span, the readings would be
Span: 3 s
Center: 2 s (internally 1.5 s)
increasing the Center can be done by units but it must not be rounded.
increasing by one gives
Span: 3 (seconds 2-3-4)
Center: 3 (internally 2.5)

If we adjust the Span, it should only be done in double-units if
preserving the Span is desired. Increasing the former selection by 2
gives
Span: 5 (seconds 1-2-3-4-5)
Center: 3 (internally 2.5)

As you've pointed out, increasing the Length/Span by only one needs a
preferred direction to add units, alternating between start and end.
Starting from the 2-3-4 example, this would give:
2-3-4, Center 3 (internally 2.5)
2-3-4-5 Center 3 (internally 3)
1-2-3-4-5, Center 3 (internally 2.5)
1-2-3-4-5-6, Center 3 (internally 3)
Is that correct?
The center oscillates internally but stays the same in the display
with a slight bias towards the right at times ("Floor" instead of
"Round" would do the opposite).

As I said, we could do without Center if we don't want keep internal fractions.
Start would go 2-2-1-1-... internally and externally.

Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck. If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected, namely nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities such as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of the key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station) which are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[James Crook]

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
Hmm.
The tab order problem can be fixed by code to set the tab order.
Let me check I have understood your proposal about point 1.
-------------------------------------
The second numeric control of the pair has a radio button group above it
end
length
span
The first numeric control of the pair has no radio button. It has a
title that changes to 'Selection center:' if using span, 'Selection
start:' otherwise.
-------------------------------------
That seems very doable, and if that would work a lot better, let's move
on from the current design in HEAD.

0> There is a small detail, that if we want a span from sample 101 to 104

Post by James Crook
(inclusive) the center needs to be at 102.5. and the span length must
be odd. If we want a span from sample 101 to 105, the center needs to
be at 103, and the span length must be even. I 'fudged' that for now,
and e.g if you are working in NTSC frames, center is at whole frames,
not half frames, so there is a loss of precision if using center.

I was about to ask you how you solved this implementation detail.
I would have expected that the "Span" could only be increased by
twos--manually adjusting start and end would give the same.
Of course, there remains the problem with the center value not
displaying correctly if the length is odd.
There's no place for a ".5" or a ½.
Another possibility is to put ≈ (almost equal to) in front of the value.
And the simplest one (apart from leaving all how it is): Forget
"Center" altogether.
We could still nudge the selection by adjusting "Start".
The only important behaviour is that of "Span" which shrinks/grows the
selection of both sides.
In other words, you could still set the edit cursor to a specific
position and expand the selection afterwards to do for example Peter's
+/-15 minutes deletion.
It might even be better since it shows when we are at time zero with the start.

Hmm. A further detail of that is that "Span" could be allowed to
increment/decrement in units steps. When span is an odd number of
units, incrementing/decrementing moves end but not start. When it is an
even number, incrementing/decrementing moves start but not end.

What's the current behaviour if "Snap-to" is off?

The current behaviour is 'a bit wild' IF you have center-length as your
choice, and are (attempting to modify) length by single samples. The
round trips and rounding (currently) can even lead to incrementing
length having no effect on length at all (a bug).

If you are incrementing in 10's of samples, it seems to be OK. If you
are working with just start-end-length you should be OK too.

I can (and should) fix this, probably using the alternating approach.

Post by Robert Hänggi
As I understand it, the project rate is basis for the division.
The controls show a rounded value according to the format. Changing
values there will "snap to" whole numbers whereas expanding by
keyboard can still "destroy" integer values (silently rounded behind
the scenes).
Let's suppose the format is HH:MM:SS
and the selection is seconds 1-2-3
If we engage Center/span, the readings would be
Span: 3 s
Center: 2 s (internally 1.5 s)
increasing the Center can be done by units but it must not be rounded.
increasing by one gives
Span: 3 (seconds 2-3-4)
Center: 3 (internally 2.5)
If we adjust the Span, it should only be done in double-units if
preserving the Span is desired. Increasing the former selection by 2
gives
Span: 5 (seconds 1-2-3-4-5)
Center: 3 (internally 2.5)
As you've pointed out, increasing the Length/Span by only one needs a
preferred direction to add units, alternating between start and end.
2-3-4, Center 3 (internally 2.5)
2-3-4-5 Center 3 (internally 3)
1-2-3-4-5, Center 3 (internally 2.5)
1-2-3-4-5-6, Center 3 (internally 3)
Is that correct?
The center oscillates internally but stays the same in the display
with a slight bias towards the right at times ("Floor" instead of
"Round" would do the opposite).
As I said, we could do without Center if we don't want keep internal fractions.
Start would go 2-2-1-1-... internally and externally.

I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)

Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck. If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected, namely nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities such as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of the key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station) which are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[Robert Hänggi]

(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.

I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
modification:

1. Start End and Length are always shown

2. The radio group would look something like:

"Move Start/End

* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)

Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"

Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the selection.

However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.

The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.

Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck. If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected, namely nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities such as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of the key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station) which are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[James Crook]

Robert,

How about if the options are to show:

Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.

If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.

If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.


--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck. If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected, namely nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities such as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of the key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station) which are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[Robert Hänggi]

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).

If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.

Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck. If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[James Crook]

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".

I wanted to put them in the context menu, at the top of the list, just
for convenience/ease of programming, and then iterate on that after
2.2.0. But OK, I won't.

A choice box like the snap-to one is the next easiest, but could not
live above the numerical controls as there is not enough room (and we
can't/shouldn't make the selection toolbar taller).

So I think for 2.2.0 it means a button on the toolbar that opens a
menu. After 2.2.0 the button will open a dialog instead, and we can put
a lot more options in that dialog.

I'll also include 'Center - Length' and 'Start - Center - Length' as
options.

Good to go?

--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck. If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

[Federico Miyara]

Dear all,

Some sort of multiselection would be useful in order to apply the same
effect to more thane one interval. In word processing software, for
instance, usually holding Ctrl allows multiselection.

Regards,

Federico

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".

I wanted to put them in the context menu, at the top of the list, just
for convenience/ease of programming, and then iterate on that after
2.2.0. But OK, I won't.
A choice box like the snap-to one is the next easiest, but could not
live above the numerical controls as there is not enough room (and we
can't/shouldn't make the selection toolbar taller).
So I think for 2.2.0 it means a button on the toolbar that opens a
menu. After 2.2.0 the button will open a dialog instead, and we can put
a lot more options in that dialog.
I'll also include 'Center - Length' and 'Start - Center - Length' as
options.
Good to go?
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck. If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[James Crook]

Post by Federico Miyara
Dear all,
Some sort of multiselection would be useful in order to apply the same
effect to more thane one interval. In word processing software, for
instance, usually holding Ctrl allows multiselection.
Regards,
Federico

+1

Paul's work on refactoring the track panel is also making the code for
selection cleaner. Cleaner code for selection, i.e. keeping it more
localised, is a prerequisite for multi-selection (in my opinion).

An apply-at-labels option would progress us quite a long way towards
true multi-selection.

The selection toolbar is currently designed for just one selection. With
two navigation buttons, selection toolbar could be made into a label (or
clip) navigator and we should, in my opinion, be putting selections,
clips and labels 'on the same footing' in a certain sense.

So, multi-selection is related to multi-clip and multi-labels in my
opinion. We should be aiming to use the same code.

I think full multi-selection is too-much/too-much-risk for 2.2.0. Apply
effect at labels would be nice for 2.2.0 and it is a smaller safer step.

--James.

Post by Federico Miyara

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".

I wanted to put them in the context menu, at the top of the list, just
for convenience/ease of programming, and then iterate on that after
2.2.0. But OK, I won't.
A choice box like the snap-to one is the next easiest, but could not
live above the numerical controls as there is not enough room (and we
can't/shouldn't make the selection toolbar taller).
So I think for 2.2.0 it means a button on the toolbar that opens a
menu. After 2.2.0 the button will open a dialog instead, and we can put
a lot more options in that dialog.
I'll also include 'Center - Length' and 'Start - Center - Length' as
options.
Good to go?
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same
time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck. If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn
apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour
mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

[Federico Miyara]

James,

Post by James Crook
I think full multi-selection is too-much/too-much-risk for 2.2.0. Apply
effect at labels would be nice for 2.2.0 and it is a smaller safer step.

Apply effect at labels is a good compromise and would certainly suffice
for the moment, but it should be applicable to given or selected label
track(s) so that one could reserve other label track(s) for a different
function, such as content description or playback control. And it is a
fortunate fact that tracks already do support multi-selection.

Regards,

Federico

[James Crook]

Post by Federico Miyara
James,

Post by James Crook
I think full multi-selection is too-much/too-much-risk for 2.2.0. Apply
effect at labels would be nice for 2.2.0 and it is a smaller safer step.

Apply effect at labels is a good compromise and would certainly
suffice for the moment, but it should be applicable to given or
selected label track(s) so that one could reserve other label track(s)
for a different function, such as content description or playback
control.

Yes.

A possible place to add it is in the menu for the label track
concerned. I'd suggest it opens a dialog with some related goodies that
involve iterating over all labels on a track. We'd flag it as a
feature likely to change in future versions of Audacity, as we work out
how to be more integrated.

--James.

Post by Federico Miyara
And it is a fortunate fact that tracks already do support
multi-selection.
Regards,
Federico
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[James Crook]

OK Robert. I've done this and it is now in HEAD.

No more radio buttons above the controls for start/end/center/length.
Instead there is a button before them all, that pops up a menu that
gives you a choice of which to show.

I think most users (including me!) will just show two at a time, so
please mostly give feedback on that. Advanced users may show three at a
time, or all four, and for them there is a hint which shows which boxes
are currently being driven. E.g. if you are modifying start and end,
then length will be driven (derived) from the start and end values.

Whichever values you modified most recently are the ones driving, and
the other two are the ones being driven.

I made a new icon for the button for the menu. The icon is currently
Classic Theme only. Other themes show a black button. If the feature
survives as one we want, I will add the icon to the three other themes too.

Let me know what you think.

--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length just as for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support 'Length + End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at the same time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end, length and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck. If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing more of the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an indication of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we instead take a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text. Changing them to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of all four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are torn apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups; does it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as "Length" and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing. One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time accurate/precise in this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one hour mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

[James Crook]

Robert,

I've made working with all four controls much nicer now (for sighted
users). If they want to preserve center and change length, they click
on the title 'Center' and then they edit length. The two other
controls, 'Start' and 'End', are driven by the length changes, and move
in opposite directions as length changes.

At the moment VI users would, I think, use the workaround of navigating
to Center, clicking up-arrow and then down-arrow, which makes no net
change, and then go and edit length. Center is then preserved as they
change length.

Would it make sense for 'return' to do the equivalent, saving one keystroke?

I could also provide key-bindable commands for 'fix-start',
'fix-center', 'fix-length' and 'fix-end', to do 'the same thing'. Which
of these are worth doing?


--James

Post by James Crook
OK Robert. I've done this and it is now in HEAD.
No more radio buttons above the controls for start/end/center/length.
Instead there is a button before them all, that pops up a menu that
gives you a choice of which to show.
I think most users (including me!) will just show two at a time, so
please mostly give feedback on that. Advanced users may show three at
a time, or all four, and for them there is a hint which shows which
boxes are currently being driven. E.g. if you are modifying start and
end, then length will be driven (derived) from the start and end values.
Whichever values you modified most recently are the ones driving, and
the other two are the ones being driven.
I made a new icon for the button for the menu. The icon is currently
Classic Theme only. Other themes show a black button. If the feature
survives as one we want, I will add the icon to the three other themes too.
Let me know what you think.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length
just as
for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support
'Length +
End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at
the same
time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end,
length
and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that
whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck.
If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing
more of
the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an
indication
of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we
instead take
a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text.
Changing them
to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of
all
four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are
torn
apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups;
does
it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as
"Length"
and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g.
"Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing.
One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time
accurate/precise in
this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one
hour
mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

[Robert Hänggi]

Thanks James.

You're probably right that the two-control Layouts are the easiest to use.
Of course I know what you're driving at with "Driven".
On first try, I've certainly pressed a dozen times space on the
"Selection Options" instead of Enter. ;-)

We still have the problem that the meaning of e.g. start changes from
one option to the other without indication what it does:

1. Start-End
means that start drives the (invisible) length
2. Start-Length
means that start drives the (invisible) end

Thus, it would be useful to indicate the changed behaviour in one of
those options.
Again, this is for VI users that jump to the control and have
forgotten if length or end is active.
Same for the second control
I assume here that Start is replaced by End (currently, it's interchanged)
So we have
2. Start-Length
means that length drives (invisible) end
3. End-Length
means that length drives (invisible) start
4. Center-Length
means that length drives start and end in opposite directions or
that center does not affect the length.

Same for the two End cases...

For sighted users, this info is superfluous since they see at a glance
what controls are active.

But you can put off enhancing this.

I can tell you how I will probably change the behaviour (in my screen
reader script) if we stick to the Selection Options button and the
four combinations of two controls that are listed above:

a) implement shortcuts that immediately jump to the two controls.
b) describe what the chosen control will affect, e.g. "Start (moves
selection)" for Start-Length
c) provide the means to change the combination without having to leave
the control, most likely by toggling with the Enter key or clicking on
the title for those with rest-sight.
(Although I initially wanted the Enter key to perform a going back to
the Track View).

This is actually independent of whether we will keep the old style or
switch to the new one.

Robert
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
I've made working with all four controls much nicer now (for sighted
users). If they want to preserve center and change length, they click
on the title 'Center' and then they edit length. The two other
controls, 'Start' and 'End', are driven by the length changes, and move
in opposite directions as length changes.
At the moment VI users would, I think, use the workaround of navigating
to Center, clicking up-arrow and then down-arrow, which makes no net
change, and then go and edit length. Center is then preserved as they
change length.
Would it make sense for 'return' to do the equivalent, saving one keystroke?
I could also provide key-bindable commands for 'fix-start',
'fix-center', 'fix-length' and 'fix-end', to do 'the same thing'. Which
of these are worth doing?
--James

Post by James Crook
OK Robert. I've done this and it is now in HEAD.
No more radio buttons above the controls for start/end/center/length.
Instead there is a button before them all, that pops up a menu that
gives you a choice of which to show.
I think most users (including me!) will just show two at a time, so
please mostly give feedback on that. Advanced users may show three at
a time, or all four, and for them there is a hint which shows which
boxes are currently being driven. E.g. if you are modifying start and
end, then length will be driven (derived) from the start and end values.
Whichever values you modified most recently are the ones driving, and
the other two are the ones being driven.
I made a new icon for the button for the menu. The icon is currently
Classic Theme only. Other themes show a black button. If the feature
survives as one we want, I will add the icon to the three other themes too.
Let me know what you think.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length
just as
for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support
'Length +
End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at
the same
time.
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end,
length
and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck.
If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing
more of
the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an
indication
of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we
instead take
a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text.
Changing them
to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of
all
four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length" control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are
torn
apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups;
does
it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as
"Length"
and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g.
"Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing.
One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time
accurate/precise in
this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one
hour
mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[James Crook]

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James.
You're probably right that the two-control Layouts are the easiest to use.
Of course I know what you're driving at with "Driven".
On first try, I've certainly pressed a dozen times space on the
"Selection Options" instead of Enter. ;-)

Would it help if I allowed that button to accept space as well, making
it equivalent to enter there (and not to start/stop play)?

Post by Robert Hänggi
We still have the problem that the meaning of e.g. start changes from
1. Start-End
means that start drives the (invisible) length
2. Start-Length
means that start drives the (invisible) end

Currently the screen reader should just be reading 'Start' when you tab
onto the start numerical control.

I can easily change it to say 'Start (length fixed)' or 'Start (center
fixed)' or 'Start (end fixed)'. Would that help? I presume that with a
screen reader, if you are in a hurry, you can choose to skip hearing the
full text. Is that so?

Note that there are always two values being driven. So if we are in
Start-End mode, both 'length' and 'center' are being driven, whether or
not they are actually shown on screen.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thus, it would be useful to indicate the changed behaviour in one of
those options.
Again, this is for VI users that jump to the control and have
forgotten if length or end is active.
Same for the second control
I assume here that Start is replaced by End (currently, it's interchanged)
So we have
2. Start-Length
means that length drives (invisible) end
3. End-Length
means that length drives (invisible) start
4. Center-Length
means that length drives start and end in opposite directions or
that center does not affect the length.
Same for the two End cases...
For sighted users, this info is superfluous since they see at a glance
what controls are active.
But you can put off enhancing this.

I'd like to get it right now, and it sounds like it is just updating the
names a bit more cleverly. Does that sound like I have understood
correctly?

Post by Robert Hänggi
I can tell you how I will probably change the behaviour (in my screen
reader script) if we stick to the Selection Options button and the
a) implement shortcuts that immediately jump to the two controls.
b) describe what the chosen control will affect, e.g. "Start (moves
selection)" for Start-Length

If I make my change, there will be 12 possible strings like 'Start
(length fixed)'. There are four possible controls to set the value of,
and then a choice of three remaining values to stay fixed, and the
remaining two values are 'driven'.

They will all have the same generic format 'parameter1 (parameter2
fixed)' but my understanding is that you would rename those 12 as you
see fit using the screen reader. Is that right?

Post by Robert Hänggi
c) provide the means to change the combination without having to leave
the control, most likely by toggling with the Enter key or clicking on
the title for those with rest-sight.

If you are changing one of the controls, there are three possible other
controls that can be 'fixed'. So a toggle is not enough. It suggests
to me that you need a key bound for each of the 4 title-clickings.

Do you need me to add bindable commands for those title-clickings, or
will the screen reader handle that without?

Post by Robert Hänggi
(Although I initially wanted the Enter key to perform a going back to
the Track View).
This is actually independent of whether we will keep the old style or
switch to the new one.

OK.

--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
I've made working with all four controls much nicer now (for sighted
users). If they want to preserve center and change length, they click
on the title 'Center' and then they edit length. The two other
controls, 'Start' and 'End', are driven by the length changes, and move
in opposite directions as length changes.
At the moment VI users would, I think, use the workaround of navigating
to Center, clicking up-arrow and then down-arrow, which makes no net
change, and then go and edit length. Center is then preserved as they
change length.
Would it make sense for 'return' to do the equivalent, saving one keystroke?
I could also provide key-bindable commands for 'fix-start',
'fix-center', 'fix-length' and 'fix-end', to do 'the same thing'. Which
of these are worth doing?
--James

Post by James Crook
OK Robert. I've done this and it is now in HEAD.
No more radio buttons above the controls for start/end/center/length.
Instead there is a button before them all, that pops up a menu that
gives you a choice of which to show.
I think most users (including me!) will just show two at a time, so
please mostly give feedback on that. Advanced users may show three at
a time, or all four, and for them there is a hint which shows which
boxes are currently being driven. E.g. if you are modifying start and
end, then length will be driven (derived) from the start and end values.
Whichever values you modified most recently are the ones driving, and
the other two are the ones being driven.
I made a new icon for the button for the menu. The icon is currently
Classic Theme only. Other themes show a black button. If the feature
survives as one we want, I will add the icon to the three other themes too.
Let me know what you think.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length
just as
for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support
'Length +
End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at
the same
time.
Translating that point back to the Selection Toolbar, we'd want
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end,
length
and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values (start, end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck.
If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate
silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing
more of
the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an
indication
of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we
instead take
a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar. For 2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text.
Changing them
to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of
all
four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length"
control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with. He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the right only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is
confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are
torn
apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups;
does
it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as
"Length"
and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing.
One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time
accurate/precise in
this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one
hour
mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[Robert Hänggi]

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James.
You're probably right that the two-control Layouts are the easiest to use.
Of course I know what you're driving at with "Driven".
On first try, I've certainly pressed a dozen times space on the
"Selection Options" instead of Enter. ;-)

Would it help if I allowed that button to accept space as well, making
it equivalent to enter there (and not to start/stop play)?

That's a general decision, I think, and it would be useful to have
David's opinion on it eventually.
Not everyone is so clumsy as I...

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
We still have the problem that the meaning of e.g. start changes from
1. Start-End
means that start drives the (invisible) length
2. Start-Length
means that start drives the (invisible) end

Currently the screen reader should just be reading 'Start' when you tab
onto the start numerical control.

"Selection Start" to be precise.

Post by James Crook
I can easily change it to say 'Start (length fixed)' or 'Start (center
fixed)' or 'Start (end fixed)'. Would that help? I presume that with a
screen reader, if you are in a hurry, you can choose to skip hearing the
full text. Is that so?>

Yes, you can press control or shift to stop the talking.

Post by James Crook
Note that there are always two values being driven. So if we are in
Start-End mode, both 'length' and 'center' are being driven, whether or
not they are actually shown on screen.

Center is not really important in that context, only where we apply
reversed linking.
That's why I always made the distinction for the two-control case of
having "Span" or similar and not Length.
However, I think it will work without a new label.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thus, it would be useful to indicate the changed behaviour in one of
those options.
Again, this is for VI users that jump to the control and have
forgotten if length or end is active.
Same for the second control
I assume here that Start is replaced by End (currently, it's interchanged)
So we have
2. Start-Length
means that length drives (invisible) end
3. End-Length
means that length drives (invisible) start
4. Center-Length
means that length drives start and end in opposite directions or
that center does not affect the length.
Same for the two End cases...
For sighted users, this info is superfluous since they see at a glance
what controls are active.
But you can put off enhancing this.

I'd like to get it right now, and it sounds like it is just updating the
names a bit more cleverly. Does that sound like I have understood
correctly?

Exactly so.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
I can tell you how I will probably change the behaviour (in my screen
reader script) if we stick to the Selection Options button and the
a) implement shortcuts that immediately jump to the two controls.
b) describe what the chosen control will affect, e.g. "Start (moves
selection)" for Start-Length

If I make my change, there will be 12 possible strings like 'Start
(length fixed)'. There are four possible controls to set the value of,
and then a choice of three remaining values to stay fixed, and the
remaining two values are 'driven'.
They will all have the same generic format 'parameter1 (parameter2
fixed)' but my understanding is that you would rename those 12 as you
see fit using the screen reader. Is that right?

The question is if we need combinations exceeding two controls at a
time. It would certainly be easier from a layout perspective if the
toolbar has always the same length.

Or, we could have the best of both worlds:

1. Your "Selection Options" holds all variants (that are currently in there)
2. Clicking the title switches through the two most used combinations
(start-length and start-end). Keyboard users would switch with enter
or another appropriate shortcut.

However, this will probably clash with the 3 and 4 controls mode where
clicking the title means currently changing the "driven" case (if I
understood your implementation correctly).

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
c) provide the means to change the combination without having to leave
the control, most likely by toggling with the Enter key or clicking on
the title for those with rest-sight.

If you are changing one of the controls, there are three possible other
controls that can be 'fixed'. So a toggle is not enough. It suggests
to me that you need a key bound for each of the 4 title-clickings.

No, that's not the idea.
I'm concentrating on the two controls display. The key binding is for
both the same--let's assume it is the enter key.
In its simplest form:

- You are in the Start field and it says "Selection Start"
You press Enter and it says "Selection Start (Fixed Length)
...and back again, unless we include also End and Center in the ring.
And similar for the other control.

If we were displaying three or four controls, the Enter key would
bring us automatically back to the two-controls ring unless we are in
the third or forth one, of course.

But first, we must decide how the wording for each combination and
each control should be in order to make it instantly recognizable.

Post by James Crook
Do you need me to add bindable commands for those title-clickings, or
will the screen reader handle that without?

Not natively.
Currently, I'm having problems to
examine the hierarchy. Of a sudden, all controls are on the same
level. I don't know if this is caused by the latest screen reader
update or Windows 10 peculiarities.

For a beginning, it would be great to have assignable commands for a
jump to the Start and End/Length controls.
I must give the rest a bit of further thought.

Thx
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
(Although I initially wanted the Enter key to perform a going back to
the Track View).
This is actually independent of whether we will keep the old style or
switch to the new one.

OK.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
I've made working with all four controls much nicer now (for sighted
users). If they want to preserve center and change length, they click
on the title 'Center' and then they edit length. The two other
controls, 'Start' and 'End', are driven by the length changes, and move
in opposite directions as length changes.
At the moment VI users would, I think, use the workaround of navigating
to Center, clicking up-arrow and then down-arrow, which makes no net
change, and then go and edit length. Center is then preserved as they
change length.
Would it make sense for 'return' to do the equivalent, saving one keystroke?
I could also provide key-bindable commands for 'fix-start',
'fix-center', 'fix-length' and 'fix-end', to do 'the same thing'. Which
of these are worth doing?
--James

Post by James Crook
OK Robert. I've done this and it is now in HEAD.
No more radio buttons above the controls for start/end/center/length.
Instead there is a button before them all, that pops up a menu that
gives you a choice of which to show.
I think most users (including me!) will just show two at a time, so
please mostly give feedback on that. Advanced users may show three at
a time, or all four, and for them there is a hint which shows which
boxes are currently being driven. E.g. if you are modifying start and
end, then length will be driven (derived) from the start and end values.
Whichever values you modified most recently are the ones driving, and
the other two are the ones being driven.
I made a new icon for the button for the menu. The icon is currently
Classic Theme only. Other themes show a black button. If the feature
survives as one we want, I will add the icon to the three other themes too.
Let me know what you think.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the
selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length
just as
for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support
'Length +
End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at
the same
time.
Translating that point back to the Selection Toolbar, we'd want
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end,
length
and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values
(start,
end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck.
If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate
silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing
more of
the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an
indication
of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its
length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to
change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we
instead take
a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar.
For
2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text.
Changing them
to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of
all
four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to
configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length"
control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with.
He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode
and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would
bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the
right
only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other
possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is
confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to -> Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are
torn
apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups;
does
it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as
"Length"
and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g. "Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be
added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended
Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing.
One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time
accurate/precise in
this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one
hour
mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[James Crook]

OK. I've taken a small step, and tested with Narrator, and it should
make a lot of difference.
You should get narration such as "Selection Length. Center won't change.".
If you know what you are doing, you can skip ahead and not wait to hear
what value will be kept unchanged.

I'll add shortcuts to bring focus to the four different controls later.

--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James.
You're probably right that the two-control Layouts are the easiest to use.
Of course I know what you're driving at with "Driven".
On first try, I've certainly pressed a dozen times space on the
"Selection Options" instead of Enter. ;-)

Would it help if I allowed that button to accept space as well, making
it equivalent to enter there (and not to start/stop play)?

That's a general decision, I think, and it would be useful to have
David's opinion on it eventually.
Not everyone is so clumsy as I...

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
We still have the problem that the meaning of e.g. start changes from
1. Start-End
means that start drives the (invisible) length
2. Start-Length
means that start drives the (invisible) end

Currently the screen reader should just be reading 'Start' when you tab
onto the start numerical control.

"Selection Start" to be precise.

Post by James Crook
I can easily change it to say 'Start (length fixed)' or 'Start (center
fixed)' or 'Start (end fixed)'. Would that help? I presume that with a
screen reader, if you are in a hurry, you can choose to skip hearing the
full text. Is that so?>

Yes, you can press control or shift to stop the talking.

Post by James Crook
Note that there are always two values being driven. So if we are in
Start-End mode, both 'length' and 'center' are being driven, whether or
not they are actually shown on screen.

Center is not really important in that context, only where we apply
reversed linking.
That's why I always made the distinction for the two-control case of
having "Span" or similar and not Length.
However, I think it will work without a new label.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thus, it would be useful to indicate the changed behaviour in one of
those options.
Again, this is for VI users that jump to the control and have
forgotten if length or end is active.
Same for the second control
I assume here that Start is replaced by End (currently, it's interchanged)
So we have
2. Start-Length
means that length drives (invisible) end
3. End-Length
means that length drives (invisible) start
4. Center-Length
means that length drives start and end in opposite directions or
that center does not affect the length.
Same for the two End cases...
For sighted users, this info is superfluous since they see at a glance
what controls are active.
But you can put off enhancing this.

I'd like to get it right now, and it sounds like it is just updating the
names a bit more cleverly. Does that sound like I have understood
correctly?

Exactly so.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
I can tell you how I will probably change the behaviour (in my screen
reader script) if we stick to the Selection Options button and the
a) implement shortcuts that immediately jump to the two controls.
b) describe what the chosen control will affect, e.g. "Start (moves
selection)" for Start-Length

If I make my change, there will be 12 possible strings like 'Start
(length fixed)'. There are four possible controls to set the value of,
and then a choice of three remaining values to stay fixed, and the
remaining two values are 'driven'.
They will all have the same generic format 'parameter1 (parameter2
fixed)' but my understanding is that you would rename those 12 as you
see fit using the screen reader. Is that right?

The question is if we need combinations exceeding two controls at a
time. It would certainly be easier from a layout perspective if the
toolbar has always the same length.
1. Your "Selection Options" holds all variants (that are currently in there)
2. Clicking the title switches through the two most used combinations
(start-length and start-end). Keyboard users would switch with enter
or another appropriate shortcut.
However, this will probably clash with the 3 and 4 controls mode where
clicking the title means currently changing the "driven" case (if I
understood your implementation correctly).

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
c) provide the means to change the combination without having to leave
the control, most likely by toggling with the Enter key or clicking on
the title for those with rest-sight.

If you are changing one of the controls, there are three possible other
controls that can be 'fixed'. So a toggle is not enough. It suggests
to me that you need a key bound for each of the 4 title-clickings.

No, that's not the idea.
I'm concentrating on the two controls display. The key binding is for
both the same--let's assume it is the enter key.
- You are in the Start field and it says "Selection Start"
You press Enter and it says "Selection Start (Fixed Length)
...and back again, unless we include also End and Center in the ring.
And similar for the other control.
If we were displaying three or four controls, the Enter key would
bring us automatically back to the two-controls ring unless we are in
the third or forth one, of course.
But first, we must decide how the wording for each combination and
each control should be in order to make it instantly recognizable.

Post by James Crook
Do you need me to add bindable commands for those title-clickings, or
will the screen reader handle that without?

Not natively.
Currently, I'm having problems to
examine the hierarchy. Of a sudden, all controls are on the same
level. I don't know if this is caused by the latest screen reader
update or Windows 10 peculiarities.
For a beginning, it would be great to have assignable commands for a
jump to the Start and End/Length controls.
I must give the rest a bit of further thought.
Thx
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
(Although I initially wanted the Enter key to perform a going back to
the Track View).
This is actually independent of whether we will keep the old style or
switch to the new one.

OK.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
I've made working with all four controls much nicer now (for sighted
users). If they want to preserve center and change length, they click
on the title 'Center' and then they edit length. The two other
controls, 'Start' and 'End', are driven by the length changes, and move
in opposite directions as length changes.
At the moment VI users would, I think, use the workaround of navigating
to Center, clicking up-arrow and then down-arrow, which makes no net
change, and then go and edit length. Center is then preserved as they
change length.
Would it make sense for 'return' to do the equivalent, saving one keystroke?
I could also provide key-bindable commands for 'fix-start',
'fix-center', 'fix-length' and 'fix-end', to do 'the same thing'. Which
of these are worth doing?
--James

Post by James Crook
OK Robert. I've done this and it is now in HEAD.
No more radio buttons above the controls for start/end/center/length.
Instead there is a button before them all, that pops up a menu that
gives you a choice of which to show.
I think most users (including me!) will just show two at a time, so
please mostly give feedback on that. Advanced users may show three at
a time, or all four, and for them there is a hint which shows which
boxes are currently being driven. E.g. if you are modifying start and
end, then length will be driven (derived) from the start and end values.
Whichever values you modified most recently are the ones driving, and
the other two are the ones being driven.
I made a new icon for the button for the menu. The icon is currently
Classic Theme only. Other themes show a black button. If the feature
survives as one we want, I will add the icon to the three other themes too.
Let me know what you think.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the
selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to
deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection
bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length
just as
for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that
share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For
clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be
changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support
'Length +
End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at
the same
time.
Translating that point back to the Selection Toolbar, we'd want
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting
titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If
you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end,
length
and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but
at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values
(start,
end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or
start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck.
If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one' is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate
silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You
select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing
more of
the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an
indication
of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when
navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its
length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to
change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we
instead take
a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar.
For
2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text.
Changing them
to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would
gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of
all
four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to
configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length"
control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with.
He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode
and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would
bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both
sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the
right
only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both
directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is
confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to ->
Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are
torn
apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups;
does
it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as
"Length"
and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g.
"Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be
added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended
Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing.
One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time
accurate/precise in
this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one
hour
mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[Gale Andrews]

TLDR; Way too complex unless we lose functionality by hiding
one of the Start, End and Length buttons which have served for
so long. Nor do we expose by default the interesting new Center
feature which I thought was the point of this. It was so simple
before - you want to Center, so choose that radio button.

Thanks to James for the huge effort on this and thanks to
Robert for starting the idea off.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On clean audacity.cfg the Length control is no longer available.
So that seems a regression of some sort.

I choose "Start - Length - End" in the dropdown and see
unexplained "Driven" text moving from one TimeText box to
another as I click in the spinboxes wondering what is going
on here. But I can't seem to get Length driven again despite
it initialised like that.

I notice that clicking a time digit to select it can change the
driven item, but moving with the keyboard to select the
digit does not change the driven item. I don't feel that is
intuitive.

Somehow, I get Start "Driven", by clicking "Length Driven"
(which is the value I am trying to change). I increase Length
and the left edge moves, the opposite to what happens in
2.1.3. So I try clicking "Start Driven" and "End" becomes
"Driven". At last I modify Length and get what I wanted.

I can't see any normal user understanding this without RTFM.
I know we don't have the driven problem with two boxes, but
that is more restrictive than what we have now. I don't like
having to open a dropdown to show length instead of end, in
order to avoid the driven problem.

What can we do to make this more releasable? I read "The two
most recently modified controls 'drive' the other two" and that
Start and End and other pairs are driven without saying so, But
in 30 minutes I have not grasped how I might describe Driven
and the way to change any given item to Driven.

Can't we remember the last driven (and not) controls without
exposing "Driven" to the user? By contrast NVDA *does* say
something slightly more understandable when selecting a spin
box. It says which other spin box won't change.

To my feeble mind I could envisage pinning a selection edge I did
not want to move, or unpinning one that I did. Or if there was a way
to describe "driven", to set the Driven item by clicking that item
(not another item). I don't see why even that is better than what
we had before.

I have to figure to select a control other than "Centre" to perform
a centred selection change. Which other control to choose seems
to depend on order of clicking. I can't, having managed to get
Start to change a centred selection, then click End to adjust the
end and keep a centred selection.

Is there no way to have End/Length/Center/ buttons starting just
above the end of the first spinbox, and remind VI users which
one they chose?



Gale

Post by James Crook
OK. I've taken a small step, and tested with Narrator, and it should
make a lot of difference.
You should get narration such as "Selection Length. Center won't change.".
If you know what you are doing, you can skip ahead and not wait to hear
what value will be kept unchanged.
I'll add shortcuts to bring focus to the four different controls later.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James.
You're probably right that the two-control Layouts are the easiest to use.
Of course I know what you're driving at with "Driven".
On first try, I've certainly pressed a dozen times space on the
"Selection Options" instead of Enter. ;-)

Would it help if I allowed that button to accept space as well, making
it equivalent to enter there (and not to start/stop play)?

That's a general decision, I think, and it would be useful to have
David's opinion on it eventually.
Not everyone is so clumsy as I...

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
We still have the problem that the meaning of e.g. start changes from
1. Start-End
means that start drives the (invisible) length
2. Start-Length
means that start drives the (invisible) end

Currently the screen reader should just be reading 'Start' when you tab
onto the start numerical control.

"Selection Start" to be precise.

Post by James Crook
I can easily change it to say 'Start (length fixed)' or 'Start (center
fixed)' or 'Start (end fixed)'. Would that help? I presume that with a
screen reader, if you are in a hurry, you can choose to skip hearing the
full text. Is that so?>

Yes, you can press control or shift to stop the talking.

Post by James Crook
Note that there are always two values being driven. So if we are in
Start-End mode, both 'length' and 'center' are being driven, whether or
not they are actually shown on screen.

Center is not really important in that context, only where we apply
reversed linking.
That's why I always made the distinction for the two-control case of
having "Span" or similar and not Length.
However, I think it will work without a new label.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thus, it would be useful to indicate the changed behaviour in one of
those options.
Again, this is for VI users that jump to the control and have
forgotten if length or end is active.
Same for the second control
I assume here that Start is replaced by End (currently, it's interchanged)
So we have
2. Start-Length
means that length drives (invisible) end
3. End-Length
means that length drives (invisible) start
4. Center-Length
means that length drives start and end in opposite directions or
that center does not affect the length.
Same for the two End cases...
For sighted users, this info is superfluous since they see at a glance
what controls are active.
But you can put off enhancing this.

I'd like to get it right now, and it sounds like it is just updating the
names a bit more cleverly. Does that sound like I have understood
correctly?

Exactly so.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
I can tell you how I will probably change the behaviour (in my screen
reader script) if we stick to the Selection Options button and the
a) implement shortcuts that immediately jump to the two controls.
b) describe what the chosen control will affect, e.g. "Start (moves
selection)" for Start-Length

If I make my change, there will be 12 possible strings like 'Start
(length fixed)'. There are four possible controls to set the value of,
and then a choice of three remaining values to stay fixed, and the
remaining two values are 'driven'.
They will all have the same generic format 'parameter1 (parameter2
fixed)' but my understanding is that you would rename those 12 as you
see fit using the screen reader. Is that right?

The question is if we need combinations exceeding two controls at a
time. It would certainly be easier from a layout perspective if the
toolbar has always the same length.
1. Your "Selection Options" holds all variants (that are currently in there)
2. Clicking the title switches through the two most used combinations
(start-length and start-end). Keyboard users would switch with enter
or another appropriate shortcut.
However, this will probably clash with the 3 and 4 controls mode where
clicking the title means currently changing the "driven" case (if I
understood your implementation correctly).

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
c) provide the means to change the combination without having to leave
the control, most likely by toggling with the Enter key or clicking on
the title for those with rest-sight.

If you are changing one of the controls, there are three possible other
controls that can be 'fixed'. So a toggle is not enough. It suggests
to me that you need a key bound for each of the 4 title-clickings.

No, that's not the idea.
I'm concentrating on the two controls display. The key binding is for
both the same--let's assume it is the enter key.
- You are in the Start field and it says "Selection Start"
You press Enter and it says "Selection Start (Fixed Length)
...and back again, unless we include also End and Center in the ring.
And similar for the other control.
If we were displaying three or four controls, the Enter key would
bring us automatically back to the two-controls ring unless we are in
the third or forth one, of course.
But first, we must decide how the wording for each combination and
each control should be in order to make it instantly recognizable.

Post by James Crook
Do you need me to add bindable commands for those title-clickings, or
will the screen reader handle that without?

Not natively.
Currently, I'm having problems to
examine the hierarchy. Of a sudden, all controls are on the same
level. I don't know if this is caused by the latest screen reader
update or Windows 10 peculiarities.
For a beginning, it would be great to have assignable commands for a
jump to the Start and End/Length controls.
I must give the rest a bit of further thought.
Thx
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
(Although I initially wanted the Enter key to perform a going back to
the Track View).
This is actually independent of whether we will keep the old style or
switch to the new one.

OK.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
I've made working with all four controls much nicer now (for sighted
users). If they want to preserve center and change length, they click
on the title 'Center' and then they edit length. The two other
controls, 'Start' and 'End', are driven by the length changes, and move
in opposite directions as length changes.
At the moment VI users would, I think, use the workaround of navigating
to Center, clicking up-arrow and then down-arrow, which makes no net
change, and then go and edit length. Center is then preserved as they
change length.
Would it make sense for 'return' to do the equivalent, saving one keystroke?
I could also provide key-bindable commands for 'fix-start',
'fix-center', 'fix-length' and 'fix-end', to do 'the same thing'. Which
of these are worth doing?
--James

Post by James Crook
OK Robert. I've done this and it is now in HEAD.
No more radio buttons above the controls for start/end/center/length.
Instead there is a button before them all, that pops up a menu that
gives you a choice of which to show.
I think most users (including me!) will just show two at a time, so
please mostly give feedback on that. Advanced users may show three at
a time, or all four, and for them there is a hint which shows which
boxes are currently being driven. E.g. if you are modifying start and
end, then length will be driven (derived) from the start and end values.
Whichever values you modified most recently are the ones driving, and
the other two are the ones being driven.
I made a new icon for the button for the menu. The icon is currently
Classic Theme only. Other themes show a black button. If the feature
survives as one we want, I will add the icon to the three other themes too.
Let me know what you think.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in the
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need the
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and instead
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the fields.

It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit of
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and the
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within the
selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep it
checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to
deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection
bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length
just as
for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that
share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For
clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be
changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support
'Length +
End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at
the same
time.
Translating that point back to the Selection Toolbar, we'd want
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting
titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which
fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If
you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end,
length
and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse or
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but
at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what
value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values
(start,
end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are
four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and keyboard
shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the most
recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end, or
start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly
what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that
whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users
may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck.
If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they
want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one'
is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all four
values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never
modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different
behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it
around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only
change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate
silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values. You
select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing
more of
the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an
indication
of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when
navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by its
length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only to
change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we
instead take
a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar.
For
2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text.
Changing them
to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the
numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would
gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of
all
four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to
configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as expected,
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about
the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length"
control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with.
He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode
and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would
bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both
sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the
right
only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both
directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other
possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is
confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to ->
Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are
torn
apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups;
does
it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as
"Length"
and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g.
"Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be
added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended
Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing.
One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the
station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time
accurate/precise in
this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one
hour
mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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[Robert Hänggi]

Post by Gale Andrews
TLDR; Way too complex unless we lose functionality by hiding
one of the Start, End and Length buttons which have served for
so long. Nor do we expose by default the interesting new Center
feature which I thought was the point of this. It was so simple
before - you want to Center, so choose that radio button.
Thanks to James for the huge effort on this and thanks to
Robert for starting the idea off.

I'm afraid that Gale is right.

Firstly, I would definitely concentrate on two controls at a time and
offer those modes:
Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length


Secondly, the titles get to verbose and the speech output can't be
aborted since otherwise the numbers aren't read either.

My only goal was to discriminate duplicate entries while keeping some
modes uncommented.

1. Start (affects Length) <-> End (affects Length)
2. Start <-> Length
3. Length (affects Start) <-> End
4. Center <-> Length (fixed Center)
which could still be shortened to Width or Span or whatever.

Thirdly, The menu seems a regression (at least for VI users)
- I get a "ping" each time I press enter.
- The active control layout is not immediately visible as it has been
the case with the radio buttons.
You have to navigate "Selection Options -> Context -> First entry.
It has accelerator keys but how many people will use them...
If radio buttons are not fitting anymore, I think a multi-choice list
box would be appropriate although it might not look so "sexy" as a
button.

Forth, for efficiency sake, I would consider the "Enter" key as an
additional way to go through the modes when in a control (or clicking
the title).
The above scheme of extended nomenclature for duplicate entries makes
the most sense within that context. Otherwise, tabbing around would
still be needed and one would have to navigate to the list box or the
next control anyway.

Sorry for the inconvenience James. It has been great work nonetheless.

Robert

[James Crook]

I think then that we should abandon the idea of showing more than two
controls at the same time, as even with three (start, length, end) some
indication is needed which one is being calculated (driven) from the
others, or equivalently an indication which one is constant whilst
others change.

There are 6 combinations of two controls, but only 4 are useful.
(Center-Start and Center-End are way less useful than Center-Length).
The useful combinations are:

Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length

Four radio buttons with the full text above the numerical controls would
be a squeeze, particularly with the shorter formats. I've an idea I'll
try, hopefully within the week, that could work.

--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
TLDR; Way too complex unless we lose functionality by hiding
one of the Start, End and Length buttons which have served for
so long. Nor do we expose by default the interesting new Center
feature which I thought was the point of this. It was so simple
before - you want to Center, so choose that radio button.
Thanks to James for the huge effort on this and thanks to
Robert for starting the idea off.

I'm afraid that Gale is right.
Firstly, I would definitely concentrate on two controls at a time and
Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length
Secondly, the titles get to verbose and the speech output can't be
aborted since otherwise the numbers aren't read either.
My only goal was to discriminate duplicate entries while keeping some
modes uncommented.
1. Start (affects Length) <-> End (affects Length)
2. Start <-> Length
3. Length (affects Start) <-> End
4. Center <-> Length (fixed Center)
which could still be shortened to Width or Span or whatever.
Thirdly, The menu seems a regression (at least for VI users)
- I get a "ping" each time I press enter.
- The active control layout is not immediately visible as it has been
the case with the radio buttons.
You have to navigate "Selection Options -> Context -> First entry.
It has accelerator keys but how many people will use them...
If radio buttons are not fitting anymore, I think a multi-choice list
box would be appropriate although it might not look so "sexy" as a
button.
Forth, for efficiency sake, I would consider the "Enter" key as an
additional way to go through the modes when in a control (or clicking
the title).
The above scheme of extended nomenclature for duplicate entries makes
the most sense within that context. Otherwise, tabbing around would
still be needed and one would have to navigate to the list box or the
next control anyway.
Sorry for the inconvenience James. It has been great work nonetheless.
Robert

[Robert Hänggi]

Post by James Crook
I think then that we should abandon the idea of showing more than two
controls at the same time, as even with three (start, length, end) some
indication is needed which one is being calculated (driven) from the
others, or equivalently an indication which one is constant whilst
others change.
There are 6 combinations of two controls, but only 4 are useful.
(Center-Start and Center-End are way less useful than Center-Length).
Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length
Four radio buttons with the full text above the numerical controls would
be a squeeze, particularly with the shorter formats. I've an idea I'll
try, hopefully within the week, that could work.

With full name, you mean labelling the radio buttons with the full
pair name as shown above?

If it were possible, I'd give the controls distinct names for each
combination which should imply their functionality in that context.
and list only one of them at the radio buttons (as the current paradigm is)

However, this isn't easy.
Here's an example:
Start-End should probably remain as is
(it appears in other places too but sometimes replaced by Left/Right)
Start-Length could become Offset-Length (or Offset-Tail)
End-Length could become End-Lead-in (or End-Length)
Center-Length could become Center-Span

In that fashion, each column would have no duplicates and the radio
buttons could be labelled accordingly with only one control name.
(apart from End which remains a duplication but only across columns)

However, what looks nice in English could in other languages end up as
a 20-character word or a double-double-compound word. ;)

Robert

[Peter Sampson]

Testing on W10 audacity-win-r655fc9d-2.2.0-alpha-23-may-17

My 2c worth ...

Well it's all very whizzy - but for my money it offers the user far too much
choice - a bewildering amount of choice , some of it hard to comprehend.
And tricky to explain in the Manual I'm thinking - but ceratinly hard tp
"discover"
the intent of most of those options direct from the GUI.

The first four options my head can cope with - but the second four ... !
And I prefer those first four to the pld radio buttons.

It's like asking for a coffee in the US (or increasingly in the UK these
days)
all I want is a cup of coffe black or white - not a two page coffee menu
;-))

My initial reaction was:
"D'oh, the length radio button has been taken away and I use that a lot".

But then I looked harder and noticed the extra new button and thought:
"I'll try clicking that"
and that's when my bewilderment started - and I'm a (relatively)
sophisticated
user.

Sorry to be a pourer of cold water ...

Peter

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I think then that we should abandon the idea of showing more than two
controls at the same time, as even with three (start, length, end) some
indication is needed which one is being calculated (driven) from the
others, or equivalently an indication which one is constant whilst
others change.
There are 6 combinations of two controls, but only 4 are useful.
(Center-Start and Center-End are way less useful than Center-Length).
Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length
Four radio buttons with the full text above the numerical controls would
be a squeeze, particularly with the shorter formats. I've an idea I'll
try, hopefully within the week, that could work.

With full name, you mean labelling the radio buttons with the full
pair name as shown above?
If it were possible, I'd give the controls distinct names for each
combination which should imply their functionality in that context.
and list only one of them at the radio buttons (as the current paradigm is)
However, this isn't easy.
Start-End should probably remain as is
(it appears in other places too but sometimes replaced by Left/Right)
Start-Length could become Offset-Length (or Offset-Tail)
End-Length could become End-Lead-in (or End-Length)
Center-Length could become Center-Span
In that fashion, each column would have no duplicates and the radio
buttons could be labelled accordingly with only one control name.
(apart from End which remains a duplication but only across columns)
However, what looks nice in English could in other languages end up as
a 20-character word or a double-double-compound word. ;)
Robert
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[Robert Hänggi]

Thanks, James. It is much less confusing now.
However with the longevity of the current design I think sighted
users may not realise that the label after the "-" refers to the
second spinbox. It's obvious to us, and obvious if you compare
spinbox and waveform, but I found with "Start - End" selected
that reflexes wanted to click one of the farther to right buttons
because the text for those buttons is above the second box.
Selecting "Length-Center" is another case in point. Whatever the
selection format, the "Length-Center" label or is mainly or entirely
over the second spinbox. With Frames format, the radio button
is entirely over the second spinbox.
It seems to me that the following scheme could be clearer. We
would always have space preceding the label for the second
spinbox, even if the radio button was somewhat over the
second box. We could right-justify the text for the second label.
Underlined inside a bracket is the selected radio button.
(_) Start ( ) SL ( ) LE ( ) LC End
( ) SE (_) Start ( ) LE ( ) LC Length
( ) SE ( ) SL (_) Length ( ) LC End
( ) SE ( ) SL ( ) LE (_) Length Center
I think this scheme might make it more practical to dispense with
the hyphen in the label, saving a little more space.
Or even, at the cost of moving the labels around, make the currently
(_) Start ( ) SE ( ) LE ( ) LC Length
(_) Length ( ) SE ( ) SL ( ) LC End
(_) Length ( ) SE ( ) SL ( ) LE Center
Perhaps though that makes things too confusing for the VI users?

Probably not as we see only the currently selected combination.

Robert

Another thought if we keep the current scheme - a hyphen between
the two spinboxes?
How about a tooltip for the radio buttons, whichever layout we use?
Gale

Post by Robert Hänggi

Here's an updated solution.

Thanks

The radio button above the two controls now has buttons for the four
possibilities,
Start-End, Start-Length, End-Length and Length-Center
To save space, the one that is not checked is abbreviated, e.g S-E, S-L,
E-L, L-C. VI users won't see/hear the abbreviation, as the choice with
focus is always selected and hence always narrated in full.
For sighted users I think this abbreviation works well. It makes the
radio buttons space efficient and it draws the eye to the selected
choice. Puzzled users who wonder what 'S-L' stands for can click, and
it will expand to 'Start - Length'. I think that is sufficiently
discoverable.
We might have a problem in a language where Start, End, Length and
Center all start with an 'S' :-).

In worst case, you can add one character which will reduce the
probability for a clash by about 650... ;)

There is now also a dummy 'checkbox' on the SelectionToolbar which does
nothing. It works around a wxWidgets bug on windows with radio buttons
that was also in 2.1.3. When you tab to a radio button group in
selection bar the first item is immediately selected, whereas we want
whatever item was previously selected to be preserved.
https://forums.wxwidgets.org/viewtopic.php?t=41120

You should change the state of the checkbox "isFocusable=False",
otherwise it will be included in the tab order.

Thanks for the suggestion. I made it disabled, and it skipped it in the
tab order but still fixed the bug. So that was good. Then I replaced
the checkbox with a vertical line, which for sighted users is just
'decoration' and does not get in the way at all. And that fixes the bug
too. It's not part of the tab order either. So we are good to go on
that aspect.
I've also now dealt with the case where we are also working around the
bug for wxWidgets not recolouring radio buttons, where we have to use
static text and recolour that, and empty radio button text because it
won't recolour. Narrator still reads the correct text, so I am hoping
other screen readers do too - not that it would matter if they don't
since VI users will probably not use/need the recolouring code.
This is now in HEAD.

Post by Robert Hänggi

I expect to find a better workaround in time.

Those are the bugs that makes a man's hair turn white if he hasn't
torn them out already...
Robert

--James.

Post by James Crook
I think then that we should abandon the idea of showing more than two
controls at the same time, as even with three (start, length, end) some
indication is needed which one is being calculated (driven) from the
others, or equivalently an indication which one is constant whilst
others change.
There are 6 combinations of two controls, but only 4 are useful.
(Center-Start and Center-End are way less useful than Center-Length).
Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length
Four radio buttons with the full text above the numerical controls would
be a squeeze, particularly with the shorter formats. I've an idea I'll
try, hopefully within the week, that could work.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
TLDR; Way too complex unless we lose functionality by hiding
one of the Start, End and Length buttons which have served for
so long. Nor do we expose by default the interesting new Center
feature which I thought was the point of this. It was so simple
before - you want to Center, so choose that radio button.
Thanks to James for the huge effort on this and thanks to
Robert for starting the idea off.

I'm afraid that Gale is right.
Firstly, I would definitely concentrate on two controls at a time and
Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length
Secondly, the titles get to verbose and the speech output can't be
aborted since otherwise the numbers aren't read either.
My only goal was to discriminate duplicate entries while keeping some
modes uncommented.
1. Start (affects Length) <-> End (affects Length)
2. Start <-> Length
3. Length (affects Start) <-> End
4. Center <-> Length (fixed Center)
which could still be shortened to Width or Span or whatever.
Thirdly, The menu seems a regression (at least for VI users)
- I get a "ping" each time I press enter.
- The active control layout is not immediately visible as it has been
the case with the radio buttons.
You have to navigate "Selection Options -> Context -> First entry.
It has accelerator keys but how many people will use them...
If radio buttons are not fitting anymore, I think a multi-choice list
box would be appropriate although it might not look so "sexy" as a
button.
Forth, for efficiency sake, I would consider the "Enter" key as an
additional way to go through the modes when in a control (or clicking
the title).
The above scheme of extended nomenclature for duplicate entries makes
the most sense within that context. Otherwise, tabbing around would
still be needed and one would have to navigate to the list box or the
next control anyway.
Sorry for the inconvenience James. It has been great work nonetheless.
Robert

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[David Bailes]

Here's an updated solution.
The radio button above the two controls now has buttons for the four
possibilities,
Start-End, Start-Length, End-Length and Length-Center
To save space, the one that is not checked is abbreviated, e.g S-E, S-L,
E-L, L-C. VI users won't see/hear the abbreviation, as the choice with
focus is always selected and hence always narrated in full.
For sighted users I think this abbreviation works well. It makes the
radio buttons space efficient and it draws the eye to the selected
choice. Puzzled users who wonder what 'S-L' stands for can click, and
it will expand to 'Start - Length'. I think that is sufficiently
discoverable.
We might have a problem in a language where Start, End, Length and
Center all start with an 'S' :-).
There is now also a dummy 'checkbox' on the SelectionToolbar which does
nothing. It works around a wxWidgets bug on windows with radio buttons
that was also in 2.1.3. When you tab to a radio button group in
selection bar the first item is immediately selected, whereas we want
whatever item was previously selected to be preserved.
https://forums.wxwidgets.org/viewtopic.php?t=41120
I expect to find a better workaround in time.

http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1542

Thanks. It is relevant.
The problem appears to be with wxWidget's own Navigate() method. Leaving
NumericTextControls out of it, we still see the problem when going from
an AButton to a RadioButton group.
// Navigates from fromId to toId/toObject.
wxAccStatus wxWindowAccessible::Navigate(wxNavDir navDir, int fromId,
int* WXUNUSED(toId), wxAccessible** toObject)
and that code is agnostic about what kind of windows/buttons are grouped
together, and does not treat TAB into radio buttons specially.
The problem seems to be when wxHAS_NATIVE_TAB_TRAVERSAL is false, and
wxWidgets takes over the tab traversal. But I could be barking up the
wrong tree.

Yes, I think that the code to move focus from the NumericTextCtrl avoids
the problem by not using the normal functions that wxWidgets uses to move
the focus. However, I think that the code that you quote is used to service
requests from screen readers, rather than for moving focus.

David.

--James.
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[Robert Hänggi]

I just realized that all four controls are actually available for my
script in order to be read out.

I'm not sure if I will expose all four with four shortcuts by
attaching "invisible" to two of them or if I keep only two shortcuts
with changing suffix.

A luxury problem... :D

Thanks for your great work on that, James.

Steve has risen a point about the Audio Position "Control".
Do we want to make it change the playback start for real?
It offers some possibilities.
The user could for example record the phrase "Where's the Loop?" and
select the end of it.
If he now sets the Audio Position to zero and starts loop playback, it would go:

"Where's the Loopoopoopoopoo..." :grin:

However, some users might grow old before they realize that this
feature is available...

Robert

Post by Robert Hänggi

Here's an updated solution.

Thanks

The radio button above the two controls now has buttons for the four
possibilities,
Start-End, Start-Length, End-Length and Length-Center
To save space, the one that is not checked is abbreviated, e.g S-E, S-L,
E-L, L-C. VI users won't see/hear the abbreviation, as the choice with
focus is always selected and hence always narrated in full.
For sighted users I think this abbreviation works well. It makes the
radio buttons space efficient and it draws the eye to the selected
choice. Puzzled users who wonder what 'S-L' stands for can click, and
it will expand to 'Start - Length'. I think that is sufficiently
discoverable.
We might have a problem in a language where Start, End, Length and
Center all start with an 'S' :-).

In worst case, you can add one character which will reduce the
probability for a clash by about 650... ;)

There is now also a dummy 'checkbox' on the SelectionToolbar which does
nothing. It works around a wxWidgets bug on windows with radio buttons
that was also in 2.1.3. When you tab to a radio button group in
selection bar the first item is immediately selected, whereas we want
whatever item was previously selected to be preserved.
https://forums.wxwidgets.org/viewtopic.php?t=41120

You should change the state of the checkbox "isFocusable=False",
otherwise it will be included in the tab order.

Thanks for the suggestion. I made it disabled, and it skipped it in the
tab order but still fixed the bug. So that was good. Then I replaced
the checkbox with a vertical line, which for sighted users is just
'decoration' and does not get in the way at all. And that fixes the bug
too. It's not part of the tab order either. So we are good to go on
that aspect.
I've also now dealt with the case where we are also working around the
bug for wxWidgets not recolouring radio buttons, where we have to use
static text and recolour that, and empty radio button text because it
won't recolour. Narrator still reads the correct text, so I am hoping
other screen readers do too - not that it would matter if they don't
since VI users will probably not use/need the recolouring code.
This is now in HEAD.

Post by Robert Hänggi

I expect to find a better workaround in time.

Those are the bugs that makes a man's hair turn white if he hasn't
torn them out already...
Robert

--James.

Post by James Crook
I think then that we should abandon the idea of showing more than two
controls at the same time, as even with three (start, length, end) some
indication is needed which one is being calculated (driven) from the
others, or equivalently an indication which one is constant whilst
others change.
There are 6 combinations of two controls, but only 4 are useful.
(Center-Start and Center-End are way less useful than Center-Length).
Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length
Four radio buttons with the full text above the numerical controls would
be a squeeze, particularly with the shorter formats. I've an idea I'll
try, hopefully within the week, that could work.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
TLDR; Way too complex unless we lose functionality by hiding
one of the Start, End and Length buttons which have served for
so long. Nor do we expose by default the interesting new Center
feature which I thought was the point of this. It was so simple
before - you want to Center, so choose that radio button.
Thanks to James for the huge effort on this and thanks to
Robert for starting the idea off.

I'm afraid that Gale is right.
Firstly, I would definitely concentrate on two controls at a time and
Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length
Secondly, the titles get to verbose and the speech output can't be
aborted since otherwise the numbers aren't read either.
My only goal was to discriminate duplicate entries while keeping some
modes uncommented.
1. Start (affects Length) <-> End (affects Length)
2. Start <-> Length
3. Length (affects Start) <-> End
4. Center <-> Length (fixed Center)
which could still be shortened to Width or Span or whatever.
Thirdly, The menu seems a regression (at least for VI users)
- I get a "ping" each time I press enter.
- The active control layout is not immediately visible as it has been
the case with the radio buttons.
You have to navigate "Selection Options -> Context -> First entry.
It has accelerator keys but how many people will use them...
If radio buttons are not fitting anymore, I think a multi-choice list
box would be appropriate although it might not look so "sexy" as a
button.
Forth, for efficiency sake, I would consider the "Enter" key as an
additional way to go through the modes when in a control (or clicking
the title).
The above scheme of extended nomenclature for duplicate entries makes
the most sense within that context. Otherwise, tabbing around would
still be needed and one would have to navigate to the list box or the
next control anyway.
Sorry for the inconvenience James. It has been great work nonetheless.
Robert

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[Gale Andrews]

I think sighted users may not realise that the label after the "-" refers to the
second spinbox

I'd some concerns about that too. It's a problem of trying to change
two labels at once.
I too think a hyphen between the two spinboxes would help, probably more
than we think at first.
I don't think either of the two designs you propose are better. The two
fields are treated rather differently, and that just feels wrong.
Re-ordering the radio boxes as you navigate/click on them would cause
confusion for VI and non VI users who use keyboards. I think it would
stop you using the arrow keys effectively with the radio boxes.
Consider this particular problem. I start from here with focus on 'SE'
radio button.
(_) Start ( ) SL ( ) LE ( ) LC End
I now use right arrow, to change to focus on 'SL'.
(_) Start ( ) SE ( ) LE ( ) LC Length
I now use right arrow again, and I am back on 'SE'. I never get to 'LE'
or 'LC' in this scheme.
< Start - End >
The hyphen is aligned above the hyphen between the two spinboxes, so the
labels are above their spinboxes. The '<' and '>' are small clickable
triangles. Each click changes the combination.

+1 to try that if it gets VI approval. It would be so much clearer
which part of the label applies to which spinbox.



Gale

Thanks, James. It is much less confusing now.
However with the longevity of the current design I think sighted
users may not realise that the label after the "-" refers to the
second spinbox. It's obvious to us, and obvious if you compare
spinbox and waveform, but I found with "Start - End" selected
that reflexes wanted to click one of the farther to right buttons
because the text for those buttons is above the second box.
Selecting "Length-Center" is another case in point. Whatever the
selection format, the "Length-Center" label or is mainly or entirely
over the second spinbox. With Frames format, the radio button
is entirely over the second spinbox.
It seems to me that the following scheme could be clearer. We
would always have space preceding the label for the second
spinbox, even if the radio button was somewhat over the
second box. We could right-justify the text for the second label.
Underlined inside a bracket is the selected radio button.
(_) Start ( ) SL ( ) LE ( ) LC End
( ) SE (_) Start ( ) LE ( ) LC Length
( ) SE ( ) SL (_) Length ( ) LC End
( ) SE ( ) SL ( ) LE (_) Length Center
I think this scheme might make it more practical to dispense with
the hyphen in the label, saving a little more space.
Or even, at the cost of moving the labels around, make the currently
(_) Start ( ) SE ( ) LE ( ) LC Length
(_) Length ( ) SE ( ) SL ( ) LC End
(_) Length ( ) SE ( ) SL ( ) LE Center
Perhaps though that makes things too confusing for the VI users?
Another thought if we keep the current scheme - a hyphen between
the two spinboxes?
How about a tooltip for the radio buttons, whichever layout we use?
Gale

Post by Robert Hänggi

Here's an updated solution.

Thanks

The radio button above the two controls now has buttons for the four
possibilities,
Start-End, Start-Length, End-Length and Length-Center
To save space, the one that is not checked is abbreviated, e.g S-E, S-L,
E-L, L-C. VI users won't see/hear the abbreviation, as the choice with
focus is always selected and hence always narrated in full.
For sighted users I think this abbreviation works well. It makes the
radio buttons space efficient and it draws the eye to the selected
choice. Puzzled users who wonder what 'S-L' stands for can click, and
it will expand to 'Start - Length'. I think that is sufficiently
discoverable.
We might have a problem in a language where Start, End, Length and
Center all start with an 'S' :-).

In worst case, you can add one character which will reduce the
probability for a clash by about 650... ;)

There is now also a dummy 'checkbox' on the SelectionToolbar which does
nothing. It works around a wxWidgets bug on windows with radio buttons
that was also in 2.1.3. When you tab to a radio button group in
selection bar the first item is immediately selected, whereas we want
whatever item was previously selected to be preserved.
https://forums.wxwidgets.org/viewtopic.php?t=41120

You should change the state of the checkbox "isFocusable=False",
otherwise it will be included in the tab order.

Thanks for the suggestion. I made it disabled, and it skipped it in the
tab order but still fixed the bug. So that was good. Then I replaced
the checkbox with a vertical line, which for sighted users is just
'decoration' and does not get in the way at all. And that fixes the bug
too. It's not part of the tab order either. So we are good to go on
that aspect.
I've also now dealt with the case where we are also working around the
bug for wxWidgets not recolouring radio buttons, where we have to use
static text and recolour that, and empty radio button text because it
won't recolour. Narrator still reads the correct text, so I am hoping
other screen readers do too - not that it would matter if they don't
since VI users will probably not use/need the recolouring code.
This is now in HEAD.

Post by Robert Hänggi

I expect to find a better workaround in time.

Those are the bugs that makes a man's hair turn white if he hasn't
torn them out already...
Robert

--James.

Post by James Crook
I think then that we should abandon the idea of showing more than two
controls at the same time, as even with three (start, length, end) some
indication is needed which one is being calculated (driven) from the
others, or equivalently an indication which one is constant whilst
others change.
There are 6 combinations of two controls, but only 4 are useful.
(Center-Start and Center-End are way less useful than Center-Length).
Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length
Four radio buttons with the full text above the numerical controls would
be a squeeze, particularly with the shorter formats. I've an idea I'll
try, hopefully within the week, that could work.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
TLDR; Way too complex unless we lose functionality by hiding
one of the Start, End and Length buttons which have served for
so long. Nor do we expose by default the interesting new Center
feature which I thought was the point of this. It was so simple
before - you want to Center, so choose that radio button.
Thanks to James for the huge effort on this and thanks to
Robert for starting the idea off.

I'm afraid that Gale is right.
Firstly, I would definitely concentrate on two controls at a time and
Start-End
Start-Length
Length-End
Center-Length
Secondly, the titles get to verbose and the speech output can't be
aborted since otherwise the numbers aren't read either.
My only goal was to discriminate duplicate entries while keeping some
modes uncommented.
1. Start (affects Length) <-> End (affects Length)
2. Start <-> Length
3. Length (affects Start) <-> End
4. Center <-> Length (fixed Center)
which could still be shortened to Width or Span or whatever.
Thirdly, The menu seems a regression (at least for VI users)
- I get a "ping" each time I press enter.
- The active control layout is not immediately visible as it has been
the case with the radio buttons.
You have to navigate "Selection Options -> Context -> First entry.
It has accelerator keys but how many people will use them...
If radio buttons are not fitting anymore, I think a multi-choice list
box would be appropriate although it might not look so "sexy" as a
button.
Forth, for efficiency sake, I would consider the "Enter" key as an
additional way to go through the modes when in a control (or clicking
the title).
The above scheme of extended nomenclature for duplicate entries makes
the most sense within that context. Otherwise, tabbing around would
still be needed and one would have to navigate to the list box or the
next control anyway.
Sorry for the inconvenience James. It has been great work nonetheless.
Robert

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[Peter Sampson]

Having used this for a couple of days now I still find myself
bot liking the four radio buttons - and especially not liking
the non-alignment of the text description with the data boxes.

I much preferred the drop-down menu - and now that we have just
the four options the menu will be fine and comprehensible.
This should allow us to align the text descriptions properly.

Peter.

[James Crook]

OK. I am still working on the idea:
< Start - Length >


I've just checked in some work in progress on it.
https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/ca01b55d1b3944843816c2d51c79ef0a6be3bf5e

At the moment this solution is much worse for VI users than the radio
buttons were.
In the next iteration the Selection Options button will go, and the text
above the 'Start - Length' fields will be accessible.

Anyway, it gives an idea of how it will work. It does look a lot
cleaner. The '<' and '>' are already clickable, and take you to
next/previous combination. The three parts will become proper buttons
in the next step, so that (a) it is obvious that they are buttons, and
(b) so that VI users can navigate to them.

An important thing I have already learned form this is that the '<' and
'>' need to stay exactly where they are after each click. It is
annoying when they move because of shorter/longer words.

Post by Peter Sampson
Having used this for a couple of days now I still find myself
bot liking the four radio buttons - and especially not liking
the non-alignment of the text description with the data boxes.
I much preferred the drop-down menu - and now that we have just
the four options the menu will be fine and comprehensible.
This should allow us to align the text descriptions properly.

OK, so the button with menu is back. When I have got proper buttons
above the numerical fields it will be gone again.

Post by Peter Sampson
Peter.

[David Bailes]

Hi Robert,
concerning Audacity hierarchy using nvda. If in nvda preferences > review
cursor, the simple review mode checkbox is checked, then I get similar
results to what you have been describing.

David.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James.
You're probably right that the two-control Layouts are the easiest to

use.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Of course I know what you're driving at with "Driven".
On first try, I've certainly pressed a dozen times space on the
"Selection Options" instead of Enter. ;-)

Would it help if I allowed that button to accept space as well, making
it equivalent to enter there (and not to start/stop play)?

That's a general decision, I think, and it would be useful to have
David's opinion on it eventually.
Not everyone is so clumsy as I...

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
We still have the problem that the meaning of e.g. start changes from
1. Start-End
means that start drives the (invisible) length
2. Start-Length
means that start drives the (invisible) end

Currently the screen reader should just be reading 'Start' when you tab
onto the start numerical control.

"Selection Start" to be precise.

Post by James Crook
I can easily change it to say 'Start (length fixed)' or 'Start (center
fixed)' or 'Start (end fixed)'. Would that help? I presume that with a
screen reader, if you are in a hurry, you can choose to skip hearing the
full text. Is that so?>

Yes, you can press control or shift to stop the talking.

Post by James Crook
Note that there are always two values being driven. So if we are in
Start-End mode, both 'length' and 'center' are being driven, whether or
not they are actually shown on screen.

Center is not really important in that context, only where we apply
reversed linking.
That's why I always made the distinction for the two-control case of
having "Span" or similar and not Length.
However, I think it will work without a new label.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thus, it would be useful to indicate the changed behaviour in one of
those options.
Again, this is for VI users that jump to the control and have
forgotten if length or end is active.
Same for the second control
I assume here that Start is replaced by End (currently, it's

interchanged)

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
So we have
2. Start-Length
means that length drives (invisible) end
3. End-Length
means that length drives (invisible) start
4. Center-Length
means that length drives start and end in opposite directions or
that center does not affect the length.
Same for the two End cases...
For sighted users, this info is superfluous since they see at a glance
what controls are active.
But you can put off enhancing this.

I'd like to get it right now, and it sounds like it is just updating the
names a bit more cleverly. Does that sound like I have understood
correctly?

Exactly so.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
I can tell you how I will probably change the behaviour (in my screen
reader script) if we stick to the Selection Options button and the
a) implement shortcuts that immediately jump to the two controls.
b) describe what the chosen control will affect, e.g. "Start (moves
selection)" for Start-Length

If I make my change, there will be 12 possible strings like 'Start
(length fixed)'. There are four possible controls to set the value of,
and then a choice of three remaining values to stay fixed, and the
remaining two values are 'driven'.
They will all have the same generic format 'parameter1 (parameter2
fixed)' but my understanding is that you would rename those 12 as you
see fit using the screen reader. Is that right?

The question is if we need combinations exceeding two controls at a
time. It would certainly be easier from a layout perspective if the
toolbar has always the same length.
1. Your "Selection Options" holds all variants (that are currently in there)
2. Clicking the title switches through the two most used combinations
(start-length and start-end). Keyboard users would switch with enter
or another appropriate shortcut.
However, this will probably clash with the 3 and 4 controls mode where
clicking the title means currently changing the "driven" case (if I
understood your implementation correctly).

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
c) provide the means to change the combination without having to leave
the control, most likely by toggling with the Enter key or clicking on
the title for those with rest-sight.

If you are changing one of the controls, there are three possible other
controls that can be 'fixed'. So a toggle is not enough. It suggests
to me that you need a key bound for each of the 4 title-clickings.

No, that's not the idea.
I'm concentrating on the two controls display. The key binding is for
both the same--let's assume it is the enter key.
- You are in the Start field and it says "Selection Start"
You press Enter and it says "Selection Start (Fixed Length)
...and back again, unless we include also End and Center in the ring.
And similar for the other control.
If we were displaying three or four controls, the Enter key would
bring us automatically back to the two-controls ring unless we are in
the third or forth one, of course.
But first, we must decide how the wording for each combination and
each control should be in order to make it instantly recognizable.

Post by James Crook
Do you need me to add bindable commands for those title-clickings, or
will the screen reader handle that without?

Not natively.
Currently, I'm having problems to
examine the hierarchy. Of a sudden, all controls are on the same
level. I don't know if this is caused by the latest screen reader
update or Windows 10 peculiarities.
For a beginning, it would be great to have assignable commands for a
jump to the Start and End/Length controls.
I must give the rest a bit of further thought.
Thx
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
(Although I initially wanted the Enter key to perform a going back to
the Track View).
This is actually independent of whether we will keep the old style or
switch to the new one.

OK.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
I've made working with all four controls much nicer now (for sighted
users). If they want to preserve center and change length, they click
on the title 'Center' and then they edit length. The two other
controls, 'Start' and 'End', are driven by the length changes, and move
in opposite directions as length changes.
At the moment VI users would, I think, use the workaround of navigating
to Center, clicking up-arrow and then down-arrow, which makes no net
change, and then go and edit length. Center is then preserved as they
change length.
Would it make sense for 'return' to do the equivalent, saving one keystroke?
I could also provide key-bindable commands for 'fix-start',
'fix-center', 'fix-length' and 'fix-end', to do 'the same thing'. Which
of these are worth doing?
--James

Post by James Crook
OK Robert. I've done this and it is now in HEAD.
No more radio buttons above the controls for start/end/center/length.
Instead there is a button before them all, that pops up a menu that
gives you a choice of which to show.
I think most users (including me!) will just show two at a time, so
please mostly give feedback on that. Advanced users may show three at
a time, or all four, and for them there is a hint which shows which
boxes are currently being driven. E.g. if you are modifying start and
end, then length will be driven (derived) from the start and end

values.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook
Whichever values you modified most recently are the ones driving, and
the other two are the ones being driven.
I made a new icon for the button for the menu. The icon is currently
Classic Theme only. Other themes show a black button. If the feature
survives as one we want, I will add the icon to the three other themes too.
Let me know what you think.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and End, for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in

the

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need

the

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
(snip)

Post by James Crook
I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and

instead

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the

fields.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi
It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit

of

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi
1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and

the

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi
other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within

the

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi
selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep

it

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi
checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to
deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection
bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length
just as
for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that
share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next. For
clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be
changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support
'Length +
End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at
the same
time.
Translating that point back to the Selection Toolbar, we'd

want

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting
titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which
fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility. If
you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end,
length
and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse

or

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but
at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that ought to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what
value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values
(start,
end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are
four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three values that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and

keyboard

Post by James Crook

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shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the

most

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recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end,

or

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start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly
what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that
whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value. Users
may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck.
If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they
want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour is also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one'
is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version of the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all

four

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values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span" thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never
modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different
behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it
around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only
change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate
silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will just (for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values.

You

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select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing
more of
the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

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Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an
indication
of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when
navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by

its

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length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only

to

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change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we
instead take
a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar.
For
2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text.
Changing them
to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the
numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would
gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of
all
four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to
configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as

expected,

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namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about
the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length"
control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with.
He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode
and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would
bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both
sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the
right
only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both
directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other
possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is
confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to ->
Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are
torn
apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups;
does
it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as
"Length"
and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g.
"Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be
added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an unattended
Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing.
One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the
station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time
accurate/precise in
this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one
hour
mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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[Robert Hänggi]

Post by David Bailes
Hi Robert,
concerning Audacity hierarchy using nvda. If in nvda preferences > review
cursor, the simple review mode checkbox is checked, then I get similar
results to what you have been describing.

Thanks David, that helps a lot.
I guess it just skips items that are not focusable. It is such a long
time that I've unchecked this setting that I've totally forgot about
it when I reinstalled it under W 10.

Could you also see if you get a freeze when opening the preferences
dialog? (Control-p followed by NVDA+F1, with logging level debug
enabled).
Some on the Audacity mailing list for blind have also reported that
Audacity has a sluggish response and that disabling the selection
toolbar does help.
I can't imagine why this is the case, perhaps a problem with JAWS'
video interception.
The selection tool bar does not fire unnecessary events as far as I can tell.

Robert

Post by David Bailes
David.

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Thanks James.
You're probably right that the two-control Layouts are the easiest to

use.

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Of course I know what you're driving at with "Driven".
On first try, I've certainly pressed a dozen times space on the
"Selection Options" instead of Enter. ;-)

Would it help if I allowed that button to accept space as well, making
it equivalent to enter there (and not to start/stop play)?

That's a general decision, I think, and it would be useful to have
David's opinion on it eventually.
Not everyone is so clumsy as I...

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
We still have the problem that the meaning of e.g. start changes from
1. Start-End
means that start drives the (invisible) length
2. Start-Length
means that start drives the (invisible) end

Currently the screen reader should just be reading 'Start' when you tab
onto the start numerical control.

"Selection Start" to be precise.

Post by James Crook
I can easily change it to say 'Start (length fixed)' or 'Start (center
fixed)' or 'Start (end fixed)'. Would that help? I presume that with a
screen reader, if you are in a hurry, you can choose to skip hearing the
full text. Is that so?>

Yes, you can press control or shift to stop the talking.

Post by James Crook
Note that there are always two values being driven. So if we are in
Start-End mode, both 'length' and 'center' are being driven, whether or
not they are actually shown on screen.

Center is not really important in that context, only where we apply
reversed linking.
That's why I always made the distinction for the two-control case of
having "Span" or similar and not Length.
However, I think it will work without a new label.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thus, it would be useful to indicate the changed behaviour in one of
those options.
Again, this is for VI users that jump to the control and have
forgotten if length or end is active.
Same for the second control
I assume here that Start is replaced by End (currently, it's

interchanged)

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
So we have
2. Start-Length
means that length drives (invisible) end
3. End-Length
means that length drives (invisible) start
4. Center-Length
means that length drives start and end in opposite directions or
that center does not affect the length.
Same for the two End cases...
For sighted users, this info is superfluous since they see at a glance
what controls are active.
But you can put off enhancing this.

I'd like to get it right now, and it sounds like it is just updating the
names a bit more cleverly. Does that sound like I have understood
correctly?

Exactly so.

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
I can tell you how I will probably change the behaviour (in my screen
reader script) if we stick to the Selection Options button and the
a) implement shortcuts that immediately jump to the two controls.
b) describe what the chosen control will affect, e.g. "Start (moves
selection)" for Start-Length

If I make my change, there will be 12 possible strings like 'Start
(length fixed)'. There are four possible controls to set the value of,
and then a choice of three remaining values to stay fixed, and the
remaining two values are 'driven'.
They will all have the same generic format 'parameter1 (parameter2
fixed)' but my understanding is that you would rename those 12 as you
see fit using the screen reader. Is that right?

The question is if we need combinations exceeding two controls at a
time. It would certainly be easier from a layout perspective if the
toolbar has always the same length.
1. Your "Selection Options" holds all variants (that are currently in there)
2. Clicking the title switches through the two most used combinations
(start-length and start-end). Keyboard users would switch with enter
or another appropriate shortcut.
However, this will probably clash with the 3 and 4 controls mode where
clicking the title means currently changing the "driven" case (if I
understood your implementation correctly).

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
c) provide the means to change the combination without having to leave
the control, most likely by toggling with the Enter key or clicking on
the title for those with rest-sight.

If you are changing one of the controls, there are three possible other
controls that can be 'fixed'. So a toggle is not enough. It suggests
to me that you need a key bound for each of the 4 title-clickings.

No, that's not the idea.
I'm concentrating on the two controls display. The key binding is for
both the same--let's assume it is the enter key.
- You are in the Start field and it says "Selection Start"
You press Enter and it says "Selection Start (Fixed Length)
...and back again, unless we include also End and Center in the ring.
And similar for the other control.
If we were displaying three or four controls, the Enter key would
bring us automatically back to the two-controls ring unless we are in
the third or forth one, of course.
But first, we must decide how the wording for each combination and
each control should be in order to make it instantly recognizable.

Post by James Crook
Do you need me to add bindable commands for those title-clickings, or
will the screen reader handle that without?

Not natively.
Currently, I'm having problems to
examine the hierarchy. Of a sudden, all controls are on the same
level. I don't know if this is caused by the latest screen reader
update or Windows 10 peculiarities.
For a beginning, it would be great to have assignable commands for a
jump to the Start and End/Length controls.
I must give the rest a bit of further thought.
Thx
Robert

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
(Although I initially wanted the Enter key to perform a going back to
the Track View).
This is actually independent of whether we will keep the old style or
switch to the new one.

OK.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert
Robert

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
I've made working with all four controls much nicer now (for sighted
users). If they want to preserve center and change length, they click
on the title 'Center' and then they edit length. The two other
controls, 'Start' and 'End', are driven by the length changes, and move
in opposite directions as length changes.
At the moment VI users would, I think, use the workaround of navigating
to Center, clicking up-arrow and then down-arrow, which makes no net
change, and then go and edit length. Center is then preserved as they
change length.
Would it make sense for 'return' to do the equivalent, saving one keystroke?
I could also provide key-bindable commands for 'fix-start',
'fix-center', 'fix-length' and 'fix-end', to do 'the same thing'. Which
of these are worth doing?
--James

Post by James Crook
OK Robert. I've done this and it is now in HEAD.
No more radio buttons above the controls for
start/end/center/length.
Instead there is a button before them all, that pops up a menu that
gives you a choice of which to show.
I think most users (including me!) will just show two at a time, so
please mostly give feedback on that. Advanced users may show three at
a time, or all four, and for them there is a hint which shows which
boxes are currently being driven. E.g. if you are modifying start and
end, then length will be driven (derived) from the start and end

values.

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Post by James Crook
Whichever values you modified most recently are the ones driving, and
the other two are the ones being driven.
I made a new icon for the button for the menu. The icon is currently
Classic Theme only. Other themes show a black button. If the feature
survives as one we want, I will add the icon to the three other
themes
too.
Let me know what you think.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
Robert,
Start - End
Start - Length
Length - End
Start - End - Length
Start - End - Length - Center.
If you use any of the first three, it is simple and easy to understand.
You change one, and the other one stays fixed.
If you are a more advanced user, and have the space on screen, you might
use one of the last two options. If you want to set Length and
End,
for
example, you edit Length, and then edit End, or the other way round.
Start, and Center if it is shown, will update as needed.

Sounds good.
Where do you want to place these options?
I would put them into a combo box above the controls (first tab order
when approaching from "Snap-to".
It shouldn't go into the context menu since it is hard to discover,
the tool tip to explain it and formats at the same time would be to
verbose and we have certainly already a lot of entries there (At one
time or another, we will have to add measures and bars as well).
If not too difficult, I would also add a two (or three) controls
option with Center.
Center would move the selection and length would shrink or grow in

the

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fashion we've elaborated.
Robert

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That does mean that if you want to work with center then you need

the

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full display of Start-End-Length-Center. But I think that is reasonable.
--James.

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(snip)

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I don't want to go as far as displaying half sample values, so center
would be shown rounded to nearest sample (for 2.2.0)
Does the basic plan of doing away with the radio buttons and

instead

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using the format menu to select format and fields-to-show sound good?
Instead of radio buttons we would have field names above the

fields.

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It does not yet appeal to me.
I would probably stick to the radio buttons for now but with a bit

of

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1. Start End and Length are always shown
"Move Start/End
* Free (same as currently "End")
* together (Same as "Length" and adjusting start but it is also
possible to move the selection by changing the End value)
(optionally:)
* Oppositely (Comparable to the Span scheme, one entry moves the other
at the same time in the opposite direction)
Ideally, "end" would change to "Center", otherwise the selection could
only be stretched but not moved.
Alternatively, only the length control will affect the length and

the

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other two would move the entire selection. This is probably better.
However, this is difficult to express as a radio button label
Perhaps
"Move Start/End"
...
* When Adjusting Length"
Visually, this could be indicated by drawing a center line within

the

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selection.
However, I won't be angry if you omit the last radio button (or revert
your changes).
The important point is that we have all three controls at the same
time displayed.
The second choice is the most versatile and I would probably keep

it

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checked.
The task is the more difficult as we don't know what implications
further development will have.
Robert

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Robert

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I'd also like to think a bit about the future, as to how to
deal with
both labels and clips 'in the same way' using the selection
bar. For
labels we would like to be able to set mid point and length
just as
for
selections. We also potentially have multiple labels that
share end
points, so the end of one label is the start of the next.
For
clips,
length may be read-only information but end or start can be
changed.
Dealing with clips suggests that we also want to support
'Length +
End'
as a combination, especially when lining things up to end at
the same
time.
Translating that point back to the Selection Toolbar, we'd

want

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Start + End
Start + Length
Length + End
Center + Span
I think radio buttons no longer suit. Instead I'm suggesting
titles
above the toolbar fields, and elsewhere you select which
fields to
show. Potentially there would be a lot more flexibility.
If
you had
the space, you could choose, for example, to show start, end,
length
and
center, all at the same time, and adjust any one of them.

+1
I was always for displaying start-length-end.
I've also contemplated using modifiers in those fields (mouse

or

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keyboard, doesn't matter).
The user wants only the start and end times being displayed but
at the
same time being able to adjust those values without loosing the
length.
Pressing Shift while adjusting Start or End could do the trick.
"Press Shift to Preserve the Length" or "Press Shift to Nudge
Selection" as possible tooltips.

I see modifier keys as 'elaborations' on some method that
ought
to be
designed to work fine without them.
I am not keen on modifiers being the primary mechanism.
I would prefer something like a drop down that chooses what
value(s) to
preserve (read only) when making changes. With four values
(start,
end,
length, center) and two constraints (s+l=e, s+e=2c) we can preserve
(lock) one value and modify any of the others. So there are
four modes
of operation.
Length locked, you can change any of start, end or center
Start locked, you can change any of length, end or center.
and so on. In each mode you can change any of the three
values
that
isn't locked.
So rather than modifiers, I'm suggesting a drop down, and

keyboard

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shortcuts to set which value is locked.
We could also dispense with that entirely and simply lock the

most

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recently changed value. So a user who sets start and then end,

or

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start
and then length, or length and then center, will get exactly
what they
want. It is not a bad principle. The principle is that
whatever value
they set last is what they actually want for that value.
Users
may not
figure out exactly what the rule is, but they won't be stuck.
If they
just edit the two values they want then they get the result they
want.
In the case of only showing two of the values, the behaviour
is
also
very understandable. Whichever value you edit, 'the other one'
is not
changed. So 'lock the most recent' is a more general version
of
the
approach for showing two values, that works when three or all

four

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values are shown.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Equally, when Length is displayed, Shift could do the "Span"
thing
without the Span box itself visible.
Adjusting Start without a modifier will always modify the
length as
well, in other words, the "Start+Length" behaviour gets lost.
You had to simulate this behaviour with "Center" which never
modifies
the length.
------
For Labels and Clips, we would have a slightly different
behaviour, I
think, and it needs a lot of discussion.
For instance, will adjusting the start time of a clip move it
around,
trim it, time stretch it or what?

My assumption is that for clips, length is fixed. You can only
change
the length by acting on the clip, e.g with time stretch or truncate
silence.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Lots of possibilities and dangers as well.

So I am now a bit unsure what to implement. I think I will
just
(for
now) offer the four options that just show two of the values.

You

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select
them from the number-format drop-down menu.
Does that sound a good plan?
For a future Audacity, we know we can extend that to showing
more of
the
values, without the underlying rules changing.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Robert

Post by James Crook
Perhaps used
as a clip or label explorer we could also add buttons for next
clip/label and previous clip/label on that toolbar, and an
indication
of
whether to skip or select space between clips/labels when
navigating
left/right. We could also walk the selection left/right (by

its

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length)
that way.
I am not keen to change to end/length/span radio button only

to

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Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook
change
them again in the next iteration. So I am suggesting we
instead take
a
small step directly towards the very flexible selection bar.
For
2.2.0
the words 'Center' and 'Span' would be read only text.
Changing them
to
show 'Start' 'End' would be done from the drop down on the
numbers.
That pop-up menu, which currently only offers formats, would
gain the
four new options at the top.
For some iteration later than 2.2.0 we can offer the option of
all
four
fields at the same time, or the option to invoke a dialog to
configure
the toolbar in more detail.
--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks James for implementing Martin's and my idea.
I've tested it with "Crossfade Clips" and it works as

expected,

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
namely
nicely.
However, I fear that the VI community won't be to happy about
the
change... ;)
1. The selected start option is not reflected by the "Length"
control.
A VI user does only see the control name he's working with.
He could
have previously used the length control while in center mode
and has
meanwhile forgotten that it is in this mode (Ctrl+F6 would
bring him
back to "Length"). Thus he would change the selection on both
sides
unintentionally.
Changing the value does not mean the same.
- with start checked, the length will increase towards the
right
only
- with Center checked, the length will increase in both
directions.
Therefore, I would indicate the mode here as well.
I previously called it "Width" but there are other
possibilities
such
as
- "Span"
- "Extent"
...
that could serve as alias.
2. We have now two radio button groups.
As mentioned earlier, the navigation in the selection bar is
confusing
for a keyboard user: The focus goes tab-wise from
Start/Center -> End/Length -> Project Rate -> Snap to ->
Selection
Start -> Selection End -> Audio position -> Start/Center.
In other words, radio buttons and the respective controls are
torn
apart.
And I'm still not convinced that we need two separate groups;
does
it
pay off to have the combination Center+End?
Note: the latter had to be renamed in the same fashion as
"Length"
and
for the same reason.
I would therefore just add a third radio button e.g.
"Center/Span"
alongside the known ones. If desired, the lost one could be
added as
well, e.g. "Center/Right".
Robert
On 09/05/2017, Peter Sampson

Post by Peter Sampson
I have a personal use case for this.
Every week I record a two-hour radio show with an
unattended
Timeer
Record
while I sleep.
The following morning I deal with the editing/processing.
One of
the
key
things
to do is to find the adverts (for other shows from the
station)
which
are
somewhere
in the middle of the show - DCFM is not time
accurate/precise in
this
respect.
So I create a selection window 15 mins each side of the one
hour
mark.
Robert's suggestion would aid that.
Peter

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Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by Gale Andrews
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Post by James Crook

Post by Robert Hänggi
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Post by James Crook
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[James Crook]

Post by Robert Hänggi

Post by David Bailes
Hi Robert,
concerning Audacity hierarchy using nvda. If in nvda preferences > review
cursor, the simple review mode checkbox is checked, then I get similar
results to what you have been describing.

Thanks David, that helps a lot.
I guess it just skips items that are not focusable. It is such a long
time that I've unchecked this setting that I've totally forgot about
it when I reinstalled it under W 10.
Could you also see if you get a freeze when opening the preferences
dialog? (Control-p followed by NVDA+F1, with logging level debug
enabled).

I've just speeded up opening of the preferences dialog. It may help.

https://github.com/audacity/audacity/commit/8afeed5f787d647f36662d5d1cf1ba0d6f717492
http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1436

--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Some on the Audacity mailing list for blind have also reported that
Audacity has a sluggish response and that disabling the selection
toolbar does help.
I can't imagine why this is the case, perhaps a problem with JAWS'
video interception.
The selection tool bar does not fire unnecessary events as far as I can tell.
Robert

[James Crook]

Post by Robert Hänggi
I just realized that all four controls are actually available for my
script in order to be read out.
I'm not sure if I will expose all four with four shortcuts by
attaching "invisible" to two of them or if I keep only two shortcuts
with changing suffix.
A luxury problem... :D

Ho ho ho! So you can see invisible controls that sighted people can't
see? That's wonderful. I didn't know that would happen. I'd strongly
suggest that you only ever use them for information readout and do not
attempt to let users modify them. If they do, they will end up exactly
as confused as people were when we had all four controls visible.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Thanks for your great work on that, James.

It's brilliant getting rapid feedback.

Post by Robert Hänggi
Steve has risen a point about the Audio Position "Control".
Do we want to make it change the playback start for real?

I think that's a good idea. However it's not one I want to follow up on
at the moment.

--James.

Post by Robert Hänggi
It offers some possibilities.
The user could for example record the phrase "Where's the Loop?" and
select the end of it.
However, some users might grow old before they realize that this
feature is available...
Robert